Consuela I'm not sure if God's messengers are racist and carry the baggage of that word in this show, but more specist. I don't think we can draw a parallel to racism with Uriel referring to humans as mud monkeys. A person can refer to birds as "rats with wings" or hate snakes, and it not be a moral judgment.

Austin, I'm working on the recap, and I mentioned specism, but I do think there's a parallel to be drawn. I think that's what it's there for, but I keep coming this close to blowing my whole recap over here, so I'ma shutting up. Next week Demian will be back on the job and I can talk like a fangirl, again.

A world where supernatural evils are free to do both physical and spiritual harm is far harder to reconcile with the moral core of, say, Christianity, than a universe which shows no signs of supernatural intervention in day-to-day life.

Actually, it's not, because Christianity sees this is a fallen world, but that's a really long conversation and I'd go way too far off topic. Plus, it would take thought and I'm not up to the strain of actually thinking.

But I still have a desire to see angels as terrifying beings full of majesty and power and righteousness, who are not human. Once you show them hunched over on their knees on a park bench, confessing to doubts and uncertainties, they lose some of their majesty.

I know what you mean. And they started out that way -- with Castial's visage burning out the psychic's eyes, and the shadows of wings, and the "I'm the one who gripped you tight and raised you from perdition." The Castiel actor has done a good job of seeming very "other" but if they keep writing him like a vulnerable Winchester cousin, that's going to go away.

Cindy, it might be an interesting topic sometime, but "fallen" is different from "the devil has an active day to day role". I will note that many of the longer lived Christian churches are very suspicious of superstition, of believe in elves. The Catholic church though it apparently believes in demonic possession is still very suspicious of claims of it, and considers it rare. I suspect such continued recognition is a concession, that a large part of it would like to completely deny it. And note that I did not say that day-to-day supernatural is impossible to reconcile - merely that it is more difficult than a secular world.

I do think C.S. Lewis took this view: note that in the Screwtape letters, the demon acted almost entirely through the promptings of the human heart and intellect, and did not directly appear and start arguing with the human or offering supernatural goodies. In the 'that hideous strength' series, the return of the active supernatural was seen as a special circumstance, something that had faded with the coming of Christ, and there were all sorts of reasons why even non-demonic supernatural entities were unhealthy for humans to deal with. There a whole "the great Pan is dead" theme in Christianity especially, which kind of emphasizes the uneasiness of reconciling Christianity with petty gods and spirits (and extensive direct demonic intervention). (And I think this is true of judiasism and Islam as well.)

I know what you mean. And they started out that way -- with Castial's visage burning out the psychic's eyes, and the shadows of wings, and the "I'm the one who gripped you tight and raised you from perdition." The Castiel actor has done a good job of seeming very "other" but if they keep writing him like a vulnerable Winchester cousin, that's going to go away.

I think we tend to anthropomorphize the angels as much as the writers. I think the writers will continue to write Uriel having less layers and more puffing of the chest. Castiel, will seem like a vunlnerable Winchester cousin to us, but will actually be an other worldly being working through experiences that he hasn't been exposed to in 2000 years. He might have stayed as episode one Eye-burner, the place where Uriel is, but Castiel has now had more experience with earth and is processing all the information. He still has the power to rain fire and brimstone, but he is learning, which may appear to us as softening.

I have no idea how the two angel characters will develop, but that is where I'm placing my bets.

Castiel will seem like a vulnerable Winchester cousin to us, but will actually be an otherworldly being working through experiences that he hasn't been exposed to in 2000 years. He might have stayed as episode one Eye-burner, the place where Uriel is, but Castiel has now had more experience with earth and is processing all the information. He still has the power to rain fire and brimstone, but he is learning, which may appear to us as softening.

This. Plus I think their jobs and their personalities--okay, let me start again. I posit, for I'm not sure I actually think this, that each angel was chosen or created to do the job heaven needs him(it) to do. Chosen because of certain tendencies of character and personality perhaps, or created *with* those tendencies *for* that job. Further, that millenia in that job has entrenched and reinforced those tendencies. Or, if each angel began his work as a blank slate, his personality and character has been molded by the job he does.

Uriel is a cleaner. He cleans up the mess, eradicates the evidence, and sterilizes the site when necessary. He is implacable and does not waffle over orders or extenuating circumstances. He guards the gate, he refuses entry, he escorts the dead to destinations other than heaven (Wikipedia, archangels).

Castiel (who is not named in any mythos as an archangel, but who I assume is one, because of the "iel" suffix of his name, like Gabriel, Raphael, Michael, etc.) is a warrior (as is Michael), a defender of heaven and earth against Lucifer and the legions of hell. As a defender of men, he has come into contact--not necessarily conflict--with humans, even if it was 2,000 years ago.

Uriel's contact with mankind has been all denial and punishment. He views humans as lesser, as pollutants, as beings to be banished from heaven, except for the blessed few allowed entry.

Castiel defends humanity, as well as heaven, and it would be understandable for him to have curiosity as to why humans are valuable. Intellectually and by personality, Castiel is more equable in his view of humanity, and willing to explore the value to heaven they possess. This wish to learn, coupled with his extended experience in a human body, among humans, would influence him, I think, as Austin says.

The discussion on this episode (and people's reactions to a certain aspect of said ep) gave me a plot bunny that simply would not leave me alone.

Many thanks are due to Bev, who did a speedy beta-read and helped me tighten things up considerably.

Lapsus Linguae

Oh Anne. Would you write for the show please?

I have hope that I will be able to stand the end of the series when people write such good fic.

eta: as long as everyone promises to keep writing for the next 30 years.

eta2: Can I link to it on my lj?

Hee! Thank you so much, Austin!

(And yes, you absolutely may link to it on LJ. In fact, I'd be delighted if you did.)

Kroki-Refur is back from vacation, and posted her Episode Review of Doom, Part 1. As you might expect, she was as pleased with the whole "Sam Hain" issue as you guys were:

25. Sam Hain? Sam Hain? Sam Hain the demon?!? Jesus holy fuck, Show, what the hell are you smoking and where can I get some?

26. Dear Sam,

No. Seriously, no. I know that you are able to speak at least one other language, so you should be aware of the idea that the letters of the Latin alphabet are not always used as they are in English. The mh of Samhain represents a single phoneme, ie one sound; the h shows that the m is lenited or softened, and in Old Irish is pronounced as a sort of nasal v. THEY ARE NOT IN SEPARATE SYLLABLES, YOU TOSSER.

Also, I have no idea where you got this “demon” malarkey from, but as I understand it, Samhain, being the Irish word for November and for the harvest festival, derives from an older word meaning “assembly”. So, you know, it’s just a random abstract noun, not a demon. You TOSSER.

27. Although to be fair, it’s clear that within Sam’s universe, “Sam Hain the Demon” (WTF) does actually exist, so really it’s Show I should be getting cross with.

28. It does kind of boggle my mind, though. I mean, there are plenty of actual supernatural beings Show could pick from various pagan traditions to be their big Hallowe’en baddy, and they choose a random Irish abstract noun to anthropomorphise? Man, I can just see next week’s episode now:

MONSTERY THING: GRAAAARGH! DEAN: Who the hell are you meant to be? MONSTERY THING: I’m Seas Hell, innit. DEAN: Seas Hell? MONSTERY THING: That’s right! Fear my wrath, an all that. Graaargh! DEAN: Sam? SAM: Seas Hell is an ancient Anglo-Saxon creature associated with pagan blood rituals and, uh, mantlepiece art. DEAN: Mantlepiece art? MONSTERY THING: I look right good in the bathroom, too, I do. DEAN: Wait. Wait. Are you saying you’re a seashell? MONSTERY THING: Now you’re catching on, mate! DEAN: Sam? SAM: *looks embarrassed* DEAN: But it’s just a random noun! That’s not even how you pronounce it! MONSTERY THING: Yeah, but it’s pagan, innit? DEAN: No it isn’t! MONSTERY THING: Well, seashells totally existed in the olden days, so it must be pagan! DEAN: Good grief. SAM: Hey, that’s my line!

30. Oh, hey, Sam, did you know that pumpkins are actually native to the Americas? So, you know, your at-least-600-year-old Celtic pagans who were carving faces into pumpkins to appease a demon that didn’t exist in their mythology were bloody quick off the mark, nicking those pumpkins off Columbus before he was even born. Mind you, those damn Celts are tricksy that way.

I apologize for the extensive cutting-and-pasting, but she's ever so much more articulate and amusing than I'm feeling this evening.

I've seen a lot of people mention that they think angels don't have free will, but that's never been my understanding.

In my religious training (Jewish) we were taught that Angels have no free will and pretty much have two functions - to sing praises to G*d, and to be G*d's direct messengers on earth. Further, an Angel could only be given one duty at a time, and would have to return upstairs for reassignments in between. I don't think we subscribe to the Lucifer story, so that's not inconsistent.

Of course, this type of Angel would be incredibly boring to dramatize which is probably why Angels don't do a hell of a lot in Jewish lore. Demons, on the other hand, have all the fun.

That's interesting Gar. How do demons originate in the Jewish tradition if not as fallen angels? IIRC, the Adversary is represented in the Job story as actively working for God to test creation, so not the rebellious source of all evil that Christianity later made him out to be.