The discussion on this episode (and people's reactions to a certain aspect of said ep) gave me a plot bunny that simply would not leave me alone.

Many thanks are due to Bev, who did a speedy beta-read and helped me tighten things up considerably.

Lapsus Linguae

Oh Anne. Would you write for the show please?

I have hope that I will be able to stand the end of the series when people write such good fic.

eta: as long as everyone promises to keep writing for the next 30 years.

eta2: Can I link to it on my lj?

Hee! Thank you so much, Austin!

(And yes, you absolutely may link to it on LJ. In fact, I'd be delighted if you did.)

Kroki-Refur is back from vacation, and posted her Episode Review of Doom, Part 1. As you might expect, she was as pleased with the whole "Sam Hain" issue as you guys were:

25. Sam Hain? Sam Hain? Sam Hain the demon?!? Jesus holy fuck, Show, what the hell are you smoking and where can I get some?

26. Dear Sam,

No. Seriously, no. I know that you are able to speak at least one other language, so you should be aware of the idea that the letters of the Latin alphabet are not always used as they are in English. The mh of Samhain represents a single phoneme, ie one sound; the h shows that the m is lenited or softened, and in Old Irish is pronounced as a sort of nasal v. THEY ARE NOT IN SEPARATE SYLLABLES, YOU TOSSER.

Also, I have no idea where you got this “demon” malarkey from, but as I understand it, Samhain, being the Irish word for November and for the harvest festival, derives from an older word meaning “assembly”. So, you know, it’s just a random abstract noun, not a demon. You TOSSER.

27. Although to be fair, it’s clear that within Sam’s universe, “Sam Hain the Demon” (WTF) does actually exist, so really it’s Show I should be getting cross with.

28. It does kind of boggle my mind, though. I mean, there are plenty of actual supernatural beings Show could pick from various pagan traditions to be their big Hallowe’en baddy, and they choose a random Irish abstract noun to anthropomorphise? Man, I can just see next week’s episode now:

MONSTERY THING: GRAAAARGH! DEAN: Who the hell are you meant to be? MONSTERY THING: I’m Seas Hell, innit. DEAN: Seas Hell? MONSTERY THING: That’s right! Fear my wrath, an all that. Graaargh! DEAN: Sam? SAM: Seas Hell is an ancient Anglo-Saxon creature associated with pagan blood rituals and, uh, mantlepiece art. DEAN: Mantlepiece art? MONSTERY THING: I look right good in the bathroom, too, I do. DEAN: Wait. Wait. Are you saying you’re a seashell? MONSTERY THING: Now you’re catching on, mate! DEAN: Sam? SAM: *looks embarrassed* DEAN: But it’s just a random noun! That’s not even how you pronounce it! MONSTERY THING: Yeah, but it’s pagan, innit? DEAN: No it isn’t! MONSTERY THING: Well, seashells totally existed in the olden days, so it must be pagan! DEAN: Good grief. SAM: Hey, that’s my line!

30. Oh, hey, Sam, did you know that pumpkins are actually native to the Americas? So, you know, your at-least-600-year-old Celtic pagans who were carving faces into pumpkins to appease a demon that didn’t exist in their mythology were bloody quick off the mark, nicking those pumpkins off Columbus before he was even born. Mind you, those damn Celts are tricksy that way.

I apologize for the extensive cutting-and-pasting, but she's ever so much more articulate and amusing than I'm feeling this evening.

I've seen a lot of people mention that they think angels don't have free will, but that's never been my understanding.

In my religious training (Jewish) we were taught that Angels have no free will and pretty much have two functions - to sing praises to G*d, and to be G*d's direct messengers on earth. Further, an Angel could only be given one duty at a time, and would have to return upstairs for reassignments in between. I don't think we subscribe to the Lucifer story, so that's not inconsistent.

Of course, this type of Angel would be incredibly boring to dramatize which is probably why Angels don't do a hell of a lot in Jewish lore. Demons, on the other hand, have all the fun.

That's interesting Gar. How do demons originate in the Jewish tradition if not as fallen angels? IIRC, the Adversary is represented in the Job story as actively working for God to test creation, so not the rebellious source of all evil that Christianity later made him out to be.

Sneak peak of episode 8. On a page CHOCKFUL of spoilers.

Various strands -Demons are another order of beings, not always evil, though always other alien and dangerous. And a lot of demon folklore is transformed general folklore. And there is a tradition of condmening Solomon as a great fool rather than a truly wise man because of his use of magic and trafficing with the supernatural. Also there is a Kabbalistic tradition of summoning angels the way you summon demons, but via fasting prayer and purficiation. It is considered extremely dangerous, probably more dangerous than summoning demons.

Same preview as above but on Youtube so w/o other spoilery content.

I KNOW that I just pasted in a large amount of text above, but forgive me, I'm about to do it again.

IIRC, the Adversary is represented in the Job story as actively working for God to test creation, so not the rebellious source of all evil that Christianity later made him out to be.

I recently re-read a Popslash story called Rake at the Gates of Hell by Synecdochic. In it, Lucifer (referred to as Malachai, or Morningstar) is a character. She uses a wonderful analogy when he and Lance are trying to explain why he isn't the "rebellious source of all evil":

"...Lucifer's rebellion wasn't a rebellion at all. Angels don't have free will, not the way that we do. They can make choices, but they can't deny their -- Well. Fate is a good translation for the concept, or destiny, or predetermination. The fall from heaven had nothing to do with the question of accepting Jesus as God's son the way Milton had it. I'm not going to even get into that right now, because we don't have the time, but it basically had to do with the fact that there was a job that needed to be done and someone needed to do it and that someone just happens to be sitting over there and eating the rest of my Oreos; put those down, man." Mal looked innocent. Lance rolled his eyes and continued.

"Before man existed, there was God and the angels, and everything was in perfect harmony. Once man came on the scene, enter the concept of free will, which meant that people -- us -- could choose to reject God and God's plan. It's not a question of good versus evil, it's a question of -- oh, God-consciousness versus non-God-consciousness, and since people who have non-God-consciousness have stepped outside of God's plan for them, someone's got to handle them."

JC frowned. "Handle them how? Is Hell really a place for punishment of sinners, then?"

"No," Lance said, and shook his head, then stopped and bit his lip. "Well, yes and no. Mostly no. That's not really the right question. It's more like -- God's got this plan, right? Think of it like --" Lance's face brightened a little as he hit on the analogy. "Think of a really big symphony orchestra. Everyone's got the sheet music in front of them, and they all know what they're supposed to be playing. And everyone's supposed to be working towards the same goal -- the music -- but some of them don't want to play what's been written down, they want to go off and play what they want to play, and they don't care if it turns the whole thing into just chaotic noise, right? You with me so far?"

JC nodded. Lance leaned forward. "Okay. So God's the composer, right? The one who wrote the symphony. He knows what the end result is supposed to sound like, and he can identify who's not playing what they're supposed to be playing, and he can even figure out what they need to do to get there. If someone's playing the wrong notes because they can't figure out the right ones, he can take them aside, have a few words with them, maybe give them a little more of the score to figure out. But some of the people in the orchestra are playing the wrong notes out of maliciousness, because they resent being told what to play or they want to screw it up for other people, and there has to be someone standing down there in the rehearsal instead of up at the conductor's podium, who can take those people out of it and talk a little bit of sense into them, maybe shake them up a bit. Some people can be convinced that they really do want to play along with everyone after all, and they can go back into the orchestra and keep playing along. Some people just have to be thrown out of the symphony hall. But the guy who's doing the throwing is still working for the composer, because he's part of it too. He's not playing music himself, but he's making sure that the people who are playing the wrong music are taken care of."

(continued...)