It's a week or two since I watched that episode, and it was in the midst of mainlining the first half of the season (so eps do blur together a bit). What was it that made that episode stand out for you in particular? I remember when I saw it that I was half-way comparing it to the Blood Ties ep that dealt with the same topic, and with the WoE book & movie - I was actually quite glad that the witches weren't being portrayed as sexually frustrated & manipulated by a male demon in this version, at least.

And I liked the development of the mythos that we got through this ep - the whole people-become-demons thing, with the idea that that's what will happen to Dean in the fullness of time - was this the first time we found out about that? Can't recall.

I do remember being uncomfortable with the episode, particularly the ending, but I'd be interested to know your take on it.

It just read so terribly misogynistic to me and the violence was creepily sexualized, from the dead witch boobplanting on the glass coffee table to Dean thrusting the knife into another witch over and over in a way that read more than a little like rape to me.

And I liked the development of the mythos that we got through this ep - the whole people-become-demons thing, with the idea that that's what will happen to Dean in the fullness of time - was this the first time we found out about that? Can't recall.

The how (at least some) demons are made bit was cool. And it's where we find out that Dean has a demonic future once he goes to Hell.

I actually liked Ruby for once too. Especially when she snarled for Dean to stop calling her a bitch.

Practicing witchcraft for lower mortgage rates, free trips to Hawaii and a promotion for their husbands? This is what women will sell their souls for?

Aside from the skeevy treatment of women in Malleus Malificarum, that episode and the Christmas one cheesed me off by painting pagans as unequivocally evil. Uh, boys? Half the rituals you guys use come from pagan sources, of various ethnic cultures, and that's not counting the ones that were modified for use in the church. I really liked the Christmas episode, except for feeling as though the show equates me personally with demonic entities.

The Christmas ep has the gifting of the amulet though. That is why I will always love parts of that ep.

the Christmas one cheesed me off by painting pagans as unequivocally evil

See, that didn't ping me. It came across to me that those *particular* pagan *entities* were willing to do what they had to do to survive, i.e. if no one was going to make sacrifices to them, they'd do the sacrificing themselves.

Oh! Yes, the brutal knifing scene - was that in this episode? Yes, that was particularly nasty and gratuitous. The image (along with the crossroads demon getting shot in the face) has stayed in my head, but I'd forgotten the context.

Practicing witchcraft for lower mortgage rates, free trips to Hawaii and a promotion for their husbands? This what women will sell their souls for?

I see what you mean. At the time this didn't ping me, because that whole Desperate Housewives thing is already a trope, like the Frankenstein thing, or the Groundhog Day thing. I pretty much took the triviality and materialism as just part of the trope, rather than an SPN thing - and for me that was more a commentary on class than on gender. I don't know why, though, because I certainly see your point.

Aside from the skeevy treatment of women in Malleus Malificarum, that episode and the Christmas one cheesed me off by painting pagans as unequivocally evil.

Ooh, really? I'll have to rewatch - I didn't take that on board at the time. I agree - that's sloppy writing. The episode made me wince a bit because it was doing that contrived A Very Special Episode thing, but I loved the flashbacks to Wee!Dean and Wee!Sam (for I am always a sucker for that), and the whole thing of Dean building up their dad as a superhero, with the Santa parallels. I liked that. Well, and I also liked the idea of an Evil!Santa dragging people up the chimney to a grisly deaeth. (Plus, I'd already read the fabulous Mithras fic that ties in with the ep, and was tickled to death by that. And, as previously mentioned, the whole American Gods thing. Love that.)

The Christmas episode I loved, because it wasn't that Pagans Are Evil for me so much as Gods Will Do What They Have To.

Which, you know, is meant as a lesson for YOU Mister Antichrist Sammichpants.

I pretty much took the triviality and materialism as just part of the trope, rather than an SPN thing - and for me that was more a commentary on class than on gender. I don't know why, though, because I certainly see your point.

Oh, it's totally part of the sadly common trope, but it bothers me every time I see it. This one just pinged a little harder than usual. The Winchesters are trying to save the world (and Dean) but the women are getting better mortgage rates. Eh.

Going on SPN benders, it's startling to watch the boys lose ... not their humanity precisely but they are somehow colder than I recall in seasons one and two.

The Christmas episode I loved, because it wasn't that Pagans Are Evil for me so much as Gods Will Do What They Have To.

Which, you know, is meant as a lesson for YOU Mister Antichrist Sammichpants.

Yes, this!

Going on SPN benders, it's startling to watch the boys lose ... not their humanity precisely but they are somehow colder than I recall in seasons one and two.

I'm not sure Dean does, at least in the end of the season. I was surprised how firmly he held onto his very particular Dean standards about right and wrong, especially when it came to his own fate. And I didn't think he looked altogether thrilled about Sam saying he needed to be more like Dean.

Sam, though, yeah. Sam's letting the steel in that nice long spine show, and it's definitely pretty icy sometimes.

I didn't so much mind the fact that the "Book Club" housewives were pagan as that they apparently were able to contact and manipulate occult forces via a level of expertise and dedication similar to that required by TV dinner instructions. I like it better when the occult is depicted as rare, on the hidden fringes of society, and taking years of concentrated study to master. People shouldn't be able to check Harry Potter books out of a suburban library and use them to make deals with the Devil.