Well, Kripke has flatfootedly said John was a sadistic bastard. Guess it's canon now.

I just don't get why they let John appear to care about his kids--both his kids--in S1, and in IMToD. Surely all the sympathetic vibe can't be put down to just having cast a magnetic actor in the part?

I just don't get why they let John appear to care about his kids--both his kids--in S1, and in IMToD.

But what Dean admitted about his dad was only what he *felt*, Bev. And much as he loved John, I don't think it's unreasonable for him to feel some resentment for exactly what he said -- having all of that weight put on his shoulders.

After all, whether John loved them or not is moot. Plenty of men lose their wives and still provide their kids with a stable home. Plenty of men who lose their wives in grim circumstances, too -- the husbands of murdered women don't all head off cross-country to wreak vengeance on their personal Ted Bundy.

That said, I do love John. I understand him, and I (choose to?) believe that he knew what he was doing wasn't the best for his boys, but he couldn't stop himself. We know that he thought about giving them more -- the college fund for Sam, the home for Dean.

What struck me tonight was Dean finally admitting that he actually has some resentment. That's pretty rare. But it also sort of makes sense, when you look back, and think maybe there was a whole "he doth protest too much" thing going on.

What struck me tonight was Dean finally admitting that he actually has some resentment.

I need to watch again, but there was some stuff (e.g. about the music, the coat, etc.) that almost suggested to me that his resentment of John was strongly tied up in his resentment of himself.

Also, Beverly, insent.

his resentment of John was strongly tied up in his resentment of himself

I thought the "Do you even have an original thought?" was really telling.

I was kind of surprised that the coat came from John. I can understand that a young Dean would have liked a coat that looked like Daddy's, but surely a grownup Dean is capable of picking out a leather jacket purely for the sake of one that he himself prefers.

I thought the "Do you even have an original thought?" was really telling.

That's the kind of insult Sam would have flung at him during season one, and I don't think even Sam would say that to him now. Dean's being awfully hard on himself.

Thank you, Amy! I rewound and played that line three times and still couldn't figure out what it was.

And I do agree that it was a huge step for Dean to even be able to voice his resentment. Perhaps the only way he could get it out was to shout it, more vehemently than he actually believes.

I'm secretly smiling because I read a fic this week that ended with Dean confessing to Sam that he didn't want to die, or go to hell. And much like tonight's response, Sam just smiled and said, "Well, let's get on that, then."

Got it, Anne, and backflung.

I liked this ep. It wasn't exactly groundbreaking, but there was some funny mixed in (How adorkable was Sam about Bela?), we got some backstory, and it moved the arc forward a bit.

Yeah, I'm enough of a John apologist that I really had to look at that whole scene as Dean finally admitting how much he resented the entirety of his life being shaped by John's quest. I mean, in the sense that when you have a feeling and you don't express it, it gets built up and twisted into this huge thing before it finally explodes. And this is that point: it's appropriate for a kid to reject his father, it's how you grow up and move on and take your place as an adult in a lot of ways--and Dean never had that rite of passage, that step forward on his own.

So this was that moment for Dean, rejecting all of that. What I would hope for is that at some point he makes some peace with John at least in his own memory. Because he can't just go on hating John: John shaped him so much, it would be hating himself. He has to accept his past and build on it.

As Nutty says, he needs to build his own identity, and I think that has to include coming to terms with who he is outside of just his blood relationships.

The resentment's been hinted at since Skin, at least. I think the most telling part was the couldn't-save-Mom part, because it shows how far back it really went, and how some of it would have been there no matter how they'd been raised.

Or, what Suela and Amy said.

Okay, the stuff about the music, etc. being John's is just plain creepy.

I CALLED THAT. I totally did. (I mean, so did a million other people, but still! I did! I can dig up the LJ post from 2006!)