Cass, there's a ton of stuff here.

Mean girls.

You misspelled awesome. And a little cruel.

My kind of girls. Never said I didn't like them.

Have gone through the first 4 episodes and am now back at the first, listening to the commentary. My John feelings are all confuzzled now.

My John feelings are all confuzzled now.

Um, dude, if you're gonna claim that, don't cast Jeffrey Dean Morgan.

Right? Could there be a more likable, warm face on the planet? Those eyes alone...

My John feelings are all confuzzled now.

Welcome to the fandom...

It's like your first merit badge. This one is shaped like a flannel shirt.

SuziQ, just to keep it interesting around here, there is, amongst the very vocal majority who adore John, one or two of us who are less admiring of him. I do think that Jeffrey Dean Morgan is one majorly attractive guy, and the 3 J's on screen are more testosterone than the TV screen was ever meant to hold, but John... no, I do not care for him. I know I'm in the minority, I realize that many, many people here feel strongly that he did the best he could in difficult circumstances, and so on, but I just wanted to let you know that there is a safe harbor for you if you have less than warm feelings for John Winchester as a family man. (What you may feel for him as a sex object is up to you, of course.)

Kripke has said that he thinks John was a poor father and basically unlikeable.

Geez. Krip is such a boy. His favorite moment is the guy's hand in the insinkerator. It's also been said by someone who works with him that he envisioned two guys in a muscle car gunning through backroads America, and he's dismayed at the chemistry between the two leads, that it's well beyond guy territory and into mythic loyalty and devotion, which he never intended.

He was quoted calling John an abusive, neglectful father. When Samantha Ferris asked him point-blank if there might be a possibility of Ellen and Dean getting together for a little comfort sex, he shut her down completely. "Never."

Such. A. Boy.* I think he resents the places the writers and the actors have taken his B movie horror show. I'm grateful to him for getting it on the air in the first place, and I bow to his judgement in a lot of things. But I do think he's more interested in the shallow end of the pool.

*This is by no means a slam on males, who can be very nice and thoughtful and kind, who are, at times, very thinky and profound. However, boys haven't learned yet to deal with more intricate vagaries of thought and emotion. In my personal opinion.

he's dismayed at the chemistry between the two leads, that it's well beyond guy territory and into mythic loyalty and devotion, which he never intended.

Their chemistry dismays him? How is that possible? Without it, the show wouldn't work even half as well, even if it was just about two guys, brothers or not, doing a Nightstalker ripoff in a muscle car. I mean, it's *their* show ninety percent of the time. No matter what a show is about, when the focus is that tight, you have to love actors who can play off each other so beautifully.

However, boys haven't learned yet to deal with more intricate vagaries of thought and emotion.

Wow.

P-C, I did make a distinction between males and boys. It's the same distinction I make between females and girls. I think--and it's my personal opinion only, one I've built from reading and observing articles and interviews with EK, that whatever depth and intricacy his personal relationships may hold, his preferences for his show are largely boyish and fairly gory and superficial.

I could easily be wrong, I haven't met the man, nor discussed his outlook with him. It's an observation only.

I think he resents the places the writers and the actors have taken his B movie horror show.

I find it difficult to believe anyone took his show anywhere without his approval. As far as I know, Kripke isn't an absentee creator. He may not be happy with some of the things viewers read into the show but the text itself? He had to sign off on that.

Personally, I agree with him about John. If you look at what he's done and what he put his sons through, I think he was neglectful and abusive. But thanks to the writing and JDM's acting, I can look beyond his actions and care about the man who was in a world of pain and not hate him for he did.