he's dismayed at the chemistry between the two leads, that it's well beyond guy territory and into mythic loyalty and devotion, which he never intended.

Their chemistry dismays him? How is that possible? Without it, the show wouldn't work even half as well, even if it was just about two guys, brothers or not, doing a Nightstalker ripoff in a muscle car. I mean, it's *their* show ninety percent of the time. No matter what a show is about, when the focus is that tight, you have to love actors who can play off each other so beautifully.

However, boys haven't learned yet to deal with more intricate vagaries of thought and emotion.

Wow.

P-C, I did make a distinction between males and boys. It's the same distinction I make between females and girls. I think--and it's my personal opinion only, one I've built from reading and observing articles and interviews with EK, that whatever depth and intricacy his personal relationships may hold, his preferences for his show are largely boyish and fairly gory and superficial.

I could easily be wrong, I haven't met the man, nor discussed his outlook with him. It's an observation only.

I think he resents the places the writers and the actors have taken his B movie horror show.

I find it difficult to believe anyone took his show anywhere without his approval. As far as I know, Kripke isn't an absentee creator. He may not be happy with some of the things viewers read into the show but the text itself? He had to sign off on that.

Personally, I agree with him about John. If you look at what he's done and what he put his sons through, I think he was neglectful and abusive. But thanks to the writing and JDM's acting, I can look beyond his actions and care about the man who was in a world of pain and not hate him for he did.

He may not be happy with some of the things viewers read into the show but the text itself? He had to sign off on that.

I agree.

But thanks to the writing and JDM's acting, I can look beyond his actions and care about the man who was in a world of pain and not hate him for he did.

I hurt for John, initially. And I think he does love his boys. But he's a prime example of obsession. I was never so angry with him as I was in the Something Wicked flashbacks. Even *before* he smacked Dean down for letting Sammy get hurt. Seeing those boys at those ages, and knowing he *left them alone* for two days or whatever it was, with a minimum of food and a nine-year-old with a gun? Just ... unbelievable.

But he's a prime example of obsession. I was never so angry with him as I was in the Something Wicked flashbacks. Even *before* he smacked Dean down for letting Sammy get hurt. Seeing those boys at those ages, and knowing he *left them alone* for two days or whatever it was, with a minimum of food and a nine-year-old with a gun? Just ... unbelievable.

This. This is what I cited when Lee and juliana asked me how I felt about John. As a parent, I just can't imagine what you would have to put your kids through to get to that point. Where Dean would feel like he could handle that responsibility. Just twisted.

But I am still conflicted. Probably due to the way JDM sold it.

My only contribution to this is to say that, to my BiL, raised as he was by a Marine, actually found John too soft and fluffy by comparison.

(His dad's an insanely charming individual, and was not by any means an abusive parent, but it's safe to say that strict would be a good description.)

Actually, I lie. I think John is a character who would have been a good parent in normal circumstances. I love the character. But I think his final speech to Dean in IMToD really brings home that not even John thought much of the job he did as their Dad, rather than as their drill sergeant.

I find it difficult to believe anyone took his show anywhere without his approval. As far as I know, Kripke isn't an absentee creator. He may not be happy with some of the things viewers read into the show but the text itself? He had to sign off on that.

Also, as goofy and gore-loving as he claims to be, a lot of the serious emo moments have his name all over the script.

I think John is a character who would have been a good parent in normal circumstances. I love the character. But I think his final speech to Dean in IMToD really brings home that not even John thought much of the job he did as their Dad, rather than as their drill sergeant.

This is an excellent summary of why I care about John, even though he was a crap father. I think that, thanks to grief and fear, he made a series of bad decisions that slowly turned him into this shell of a man. And, while the boys never had much of a childhood, John never got to be a "dad." The fact that he did it to himself only makes it all the more compelling to me. And now he's in hell.

It's nothing but pain and suffering all around, which I find awesome.

It's just pain and suffering all around, which I find awesome.

Woohoo pain and suffering!

The project I'm working on during my "hiatus" is, to me, the ultimate pain and suffering story. Fun!