He may not be happy with some of the things viewers read into the show but the text itself? He had to sign off on that.

I agree.

But thanks to the writing and JDM's acting, I can look beyond his actions and care about the man who was in a world of pain and not hate him for he did.

I hurt for John, initially. And I think he does love his boys. But he's a prime example of obsession. I was never so angry with him as I was in the Something Wicked flashbacks. Even *before* he smacked Dean down for letting Sammy get hurt. Seeing those boys at those ages, and knowing he *left them alone* for two days or whatever it was, with a minimum of food and a nine-year-old with a gun? Just ... unbelievable.

But he's a prime example of obsession. I was never so angry with him as I was in the Something Wicked flashbacks. Even *before* he smacked Dean down for letting Sammy get hurt. Seeing those boys at those ages, and knowing he *left them alone* for two days or whatever it was, with a minimum of food and a nine-year-old with a gun? Just ... unbelievable.

This. This is what I cited when Lee and juliana asked me how I felt about John. As a parent, I just can't imagine what you would have to put your kids through to get to that point. Where Dean would feel like he could handle that responsibility. Just twisted.

But I am still conflicted. Probably due to the way JDM sold it.

My only contribution to this is to say that, to my BiL, raised as he was by a Marine, actually found John too soft and fluffy by comparison.

(His dad's an insanely charming individual, and was not by any means an abusive parent, but it's safe to say that strict would be a good description.)

Actually, I lie. I think John is a character who would have been a good parent in normal circumstances. I love the character. But I think his final speech to Dean in IMToD really brings home that not even John thought much of the job he did as their Dad, rather than as their drill sergeant.

I find it difficult to believe anyone took his show anywhere without his approval. As far as I know, Kripke isn't an absentee creator. He may not be happy with some of the things viewers read into the show but the text itself? He had to sign off on that.

Also, as goofy and gore-loving as he claims to be, a lot of the serious emo moments have his name all over the script.

I think John is a character who would have been a good parent in normal circumstances. I love the character. But I think his final speech to Dean in IMToD really brings home that not even John thought much of the job he did as their Dad, rather than as their drill sergeant.

This is an excellent summary of why I care about John, even though he was a crap father. I think that, thanks to grief and fear, he made a series of bad decisions that slowly turned him into this shell of a man. And, while the boys never had much of a childhood, John never got to be a "dad." The fact that he did it to himself only makes it all the more compelling to me. And now he's in hell.

It's nothing but pain and suffering all around, which I find awesome.

It's just pain and suffering all around, which I find awesome.

Woohoo pain and suffering!

The project I'm working on during my "hiatus" is, to me, the ultimate pain and suffering story. Fun!

You find it awesome because we all KNOW that Pain and Suffering = awesome!

(edited to add the first half of my sentence that was only in my head before.)

I find it difficult to believe anyone took his show anywhere without his approval. As far as I know, Kripke isn't an absentee creator. He may not be happy with some of the things viewers read into the show but the text itself? He had to sign off on that.

Thanks, Kristen. That's actually a relief to know.

Also, as goofy and gore-loving as he claims to be, a lot of the serious emo moments have his name all over the script.

As is this.

This is an excellent summary of why I care about John, even though he was a crap father. I think that, thanks to grief and fear, he made a series of bad decisions that slowly turned him into this shell of a man. And, while the boys never had much of a childhood, John never got to be a "dad." The fact that he did it to himself only makes it all the more compelling to me. And now he's in hell.

Kristen speaks for me (except for the last bit, because, you know, I kinda hope he's not any more).

But I think his final speech to Dean in IMToD really brings home that not even John thought much of the job he did as their Dad, rather than as their drill sergeant.

This. And his talk with Sam in ... Dead Man's Blood? When he admits that he had a college fund set up for a while. John's saving grace, to me, is exactly that -- that he knows how fucked up he is, but loves the boys, too, and wants things for them even if he's not the one who was able to provide them.

And of course there's the fact that Dean and Sam wouldn't be who they are without the shared bond of their childhood, *and* John's love, even if Sam, for one, might have wished he'd expressed it a little differently.

I guess what I appreciate most about all three Winchesters is that they're not one-dimensional.