It is. I mean, it goes back to lore for stability, but it loves to see other people for dramatic effect and impact. Bless it.

I always thought the devil was actually involved, as in the Robert Johnson legend. And, you know, "The Devil Went Down to Georgia."

But then there would probably have been less sexy making out on the show.

What, you never heard of "The Devil in a Blue Dress"?

Um, I forgot about that.

My memory, she is not so reliable.

I don't think the Winchester 'verse more than bows to the notions of God and The Debbil. Hell as a concept, and more lately, heaven too, seem more easily comprehended. Sam's urgent wish notwithstanding, the Winchesters don't seem to deal directly with religious theology. They appear to take what they need, what works for whichever particular occult or extranormal problem they're dealing with, out of context, as it were.

Sort of like how crosses in the Buffyverse work on vampires, even if wielded by a Jewish kid.

Sort of like how crosses in the Buffyverse work on vampires, even if wielded by a Jewish kid.

It's odd. I was thinking that just last night, actually, watching Salvation and Devil's Trap. I mean, all of the exorcism stuff *seems* to come right from Catholicism (or at least some bastardized version of it based on The Exorcist), and yet Sam isn't portrayed as someone who *believes* until much later, in HotH.

It does seem sort of wrong to me that anyone can recite an incantation or a *religious* rite and have it work, in the SPN verse. Made me wonder the other day if they'll ever deal with witches, since they seem a bit superfluous if any old person can use *magic*.

But the same was true in BtVS, before they decided to make Willow an UberWitch. Giles and even Xander and Oz were performing spells, given the right materials.

I think what the writers--of SPN and BtVS, plus other 'verses in movies, tv, and books--are trying to show is that word and ritual have power, even for those who are not religious. If you learn the rit and believe it will work, it should work. Knowledge, more than belief, becomes power.

I don't know... I can see either a case where there's an actual supernatural entity being invoked and making a ritual have the desired effect, or a case where devout belief and a person's own willpower makes such a thing happen in the absence of divine (or whatever) intervention. But I don't see unbelievers being able to haphazardly recite a few words to real effect if there's not a force outside of themselves responding to generate results.

Oh, I think that's true in part, Bev, definitely.

But they flirt with giving the words alone actual power -- look at Hell House. Sometimes it's not exactly "knowledge" but simply ... well, repetition. As in Xander reciting Latin in front of the books. Which seems to me should lead to a lot more accidental spells and chaos, actually.

I'm being nitpicky, I know, and honestly the lore, especially on SPN, interests me a lot less than the boys' emotional life, but I do long for consistency once in a while. A clearly defined verse, with mostly sensisble rules.

Like ... the whole YED thing. What was the significance of the infant's six-month birthday? Why not just snatch the babies? Why the moms bleeding and on fire? (Which, yeah, remove the person who try to protect the child, but that leaves out vengeful dads and brothers, as the Winchesters prove.)

I completely understand that when you don't know if you're getting picked for a full season, let alone multiple ones, you may not be thinking long-term, and it's incredibly easy to write yourself into a corner once something is aired and takebacks aren't possible, but ... Irritating, to me, sometimes. I want it perfect!

Matt, I agree with both your supernatural entity being invoked and using its power to make a ritual work, and devout belief and willpower working in the absence of the divine.

But I don't see unbelievers being able to haphazardly recite a few words to real effect if there's not a force outside of themselves responding to generate results.

This is where the knowledge comes in. Surely the Watchers Council didn't believe in every incantation it used to bind evil or to elicit information. Giles had an impressive library, and the training and past knowledge to use it. It wasn't haphazard recitation, it was nitpickily precise, simply because the words themselves have power.

Successfully used over generations, I think of it as each time a ritual is performed, it gathers power, so that the (correct combination of) words themselves have power.

Sometimes it's not exactly "knowledge" but simply ... well, repetition. As in Xander reciting Latin in front of the books. Which seems to me should lead to a lot more accidental spells and chaos, actually.

Which is exactly why you learn your incantations and practice your pronunciation, study the history and lore, so that you don't inadvertantly cross-contaminate your ritual.

I want it perfect!

Well, yeah. I think they're trying. But tv being what it is, never gonna happen, I'm afraid.