Matt, I agree with both your supernatural entity being invoked and using its power to make a ritual work, and devout belief and willpower working in the absence of the divine.

But I don't see unbelievers being able to haphazardly recite a few words to real effect if there's not a force outside of themselves responding to generate results.

This is where the knowledge comes in. Surely the Watchers Council didn't believe in every incantation it used to bind evil or to elicit information. Giles had an impressive library, and the training and past knowledge to use it. It wasn't haphazard recitation, it was nitpickily precise, simply because the words themselves have power.

Successfully used over generations, I think of it as each time a ritual is performed, it gathers power, so that the (correct combination of) words themselves have power.

Sometimes it's not exactly "knowledge" but simply ... well, repetition. As in Xander reciting Latin in front of the books. Which seems to me should lead to a lot more accidental spells and chaos, actually.

Which is exactly why you learn your incantations and practice your pronunciation, study the history and lore, so that you don't inadvertantly cross-contaminate your ritual.

I want it perfect!

Well, yeah. I think they're trying. But tv being what it is, never gonna happen, I'm afraid.

Short combined Smallville/Supernatural Fall promo - I may be wrong but I don't think that there is any new material there.

Successfully used over generations, I think of it as each time a ritual is performed, it gathers power, so that the (correct combination of) words themselves have power.

Oh good, Bev wrote out my explanation. Because that's how it works in my head. If someone is a believer and performs a ritual, they will get stronger results because of the base power in the ritual will be boosted by the caster's will and intent being focused on it.

In the case of the Watcher's Council example, I assumed that someone in the past was a skilled sorcerer capable of formulating invocations that would attract the attention and cooperation of gods, spirits, etc. and those entities continued to respond to the rituals when people of less skill/belief employed them down the line. Not so much the words themselves having power, as some supernatural force in the habit of responding to them continuing to do so.

I've got the X-Files on SciFi right now, and both Ava and Andy (or, you know, the actors who play them) are in this ep. Both looking incredibly young, especially Ava.

I like your explanation, Bev. But I have to think about it some more.

Gee, I love us.

In the case of the Watcher's Council example, I assumed that someone in the past was a skilled sorcerer capable of formulating invocations that would attract the attention and cooperation of gods, spirits, etc. and those entities continued to respond to the rituals when people of less skill/belief employed them down the line. Not so much the words themselves having power, as some supernatural force in the habit of responding to them continuing to do so.

Well, yes, this. But I'm looking at the council, and the hunters in SPN, for example, Bobby, as librarians and researchers. They collect legends, lore, information from as many cultures as possible. All those separate beliefs and rituals springing from those beliefs have power within themselves, whether it lingers in the words, or whether, as you say, it's the power of the words to call supernatural aid.

Having the right ritual or incantation to use in specific need is dependent on knowledge--the more you know, the more specific you can be. Also, if you have belief in the power of ritual, rather than in the religion from which it springs, then you can judiciously pull elements from several sources and combine them to tailor an incantation to specific need.

Why the moms bleeding and on fire?

Was it ever explained why Mary knew the YED? Or was that possibly "lies the devil tells"?

Listening to my iPod randomly spitting out songs at work, got vids on the brain, and Citizen Cope's "Salvation" comes on, which I've listened to endlessly, but this time, I suddenly realized that it could kinda fit with Supernatural. Guitar players selling their souls, special bullets, devil's coming to take their due! Now I want someone to vid this song!

We're still waiting on that explanation, Juliebird.

And now I'd like to see that vid, too.

I was actually really sad when Mary's ghost came back to save her sons and her spirit got consumed in the process, or something (I forget the actual phrase used to express the fact that we'd never see her again).

I'd attempt to do that vid myself, but I've got at least two Eureka vids in the works, and vidding to a ballad would be tricky for me, what with the lyrics not matching 100% with the pov's presented.

Someone's probably linked this already, but if they did, I missed it. My face is aching and my belly is burning and I'm dead from laughing, so I figured I'd link it again. Supernatural Season 2 gag reel: [link]