Sort of like how crosses in the Buffyverse work on vampires, even if wielded by a Jewish kid.

It's odd. I was thinking that just last night, actually, watching Salvation and Devil's Trap. I mean, all of the exorcism stuff *seems* to come right from Catholicism (or at least some bastardized version of it based on The Exorcist), and yet Sam isn't portrayed as someone who *believes* until much later, in HotH.

It does seem sort of wrong to me that anyone can recite an incantation or a *religious* rite and have it work, in the SPN verse. Made me wonder the other day if they'll ever deal with witches, since they seem a bit superfluous if any old person can use *magic*.

But the same was true in BtVS, before they decided to make Willow an UberWitch. Giles and even Xander and Oz were performing spells, given the right materials.

I think what the writers--of SPN and BtVS, plus other 'verses in movies, tv, and books--are trying to show is that word and ritual have power, even for those who are not religious. If you learn the rit and believe it will work, it should work. Knowledge, more than belief, becomes power.

I don't know... I can see either a case where there's an actual supernatural entity being invoked and making a ritual have the desired effect, or a case where devout belief and a person's own willpower makes such a thing happen in the absence of divine (or whatever) intervention. But I don't see unbelievers being able to haphazardly recite a few words to real effect if there's not a force outside of themselves responding to generate results.

Oh, I think that's true in part, Bev, definitely.

But they flirt with giving the words alone actual power -- look at Hell House. Sometimes it's not exactly "knowledge" but simply ... well, repetition. As in Xander reciting Latin in front of the books. Which seems to me should lead to a lot more accidental spells and chaos, actually.

I'm being nitpicky, I know, and honestly the lore, especially on SPN, interests me a lot less than the boys' emotional life, but I do long for consistency once in a while. A clearly defined verse, with mostly sensisble rules.

Like ... the whole YED thing. What was the significance of the infant's six-month birthday? Why not just snatch the babies? Why the moms bleeding and on fire? (Which, yeah, remove the person who try to protect the child, but that leaves out vengeful dads and brothers, as the Winchesters prove.)

I completely understand that when you don't know if you're getting picked for a full season, let alone multiple ones, you may not be thinking long-term, and it's incredibly easy to write yourself into a corner once something is aired and takebacks aren't possible, but ... Irritating, to me, sometimes. I want it perfect!

Matt, I agree with both your supernatural entity being invoked and using its power to make a ritual work, and devout belief and willpower working in the absence of the divine.

But I don't see unbelievers being able to haphazardly recite a few words to real effect if there's not a force outside of themselves responding to generate results.

This is where the knowledge comes in. Surely the Watchers Council didn't believe in every incantation it used to bind evil or to elicit information. Giles had an impressive library, and the training and past knowledge to use it. It wasn't haphazard recitation, it was nitpickily precise, simply because the words themselves have power.

Successfully used over generations, I think of it as each time a ritual is performed, it gathers power, so that the (correct combination of) words themselves have power.

Sometimes it's not exactly "knowledge" but simply ... well, repetition. As in Xander reciting Latin in front of the books. Which seems to me should lead to a lot more accidental spells and chaos, actually.

Which is exactly why you learn your incantations and practice your pronunciation, study the history and lore, so that you don't inadvertantly cross-contaminate your ritual.

I want it perfect!

Well, yeah. I think they're trying. But tv being what it is, never gonna happen, I'm afraid.

Short combined Smallville/Supernatural Fall promo - I may be wrong but I don't think that there is any new material there.

Successfully used over generations, I think of it as each time a ritual is performed, it gathers power, so that the (correct combination of) words themselves have power.

Oh good, Bev wrote out my explanation. Because that's how it works in my head. If someone is a believer and performs a ritual, they will get stronger results because of the base power in the ritual will be boosted by the caster's will and intent being focused on it.

In the case of the Watcher's Council example, I assumed that someone in the past was a skilled sorcerer capable of formulating invocations that would attract the attention and cooperation of gods, spirits, etc. and those entities continued to respond to the rituals when people of less skill/belief employed them down the line. Not so much the words themselves having power, as some supernatural force in the habit of responding to them continuing to do so.

I've got the X-Files on SciFi right now, and both Ava and Andy (or, you know, the actors who play them) are in this ep. Both looking incredibly young, especially Ava.

I like your explanation, Bev. But I have to think about it some more.

Gee, I love us.

In the case of the Watcher's Council example, I assumed that someone in the past was a skilled sorcerer capable of formulating invocations that would attract the attention and cooperation of gods, spirits, etc. and those entities continued to respond to the rituals when people of less skill/belief employed them down the line. Not so much the words themselves having power, as some supernatural force in the habit of responding to them continuing to do so.

Well, yes, this. But I'm looking at the council, and the hunters in SPN, for example, Bobby, as librarians and researchers. They collect legends, lore, information from as many cultures as possible. All those separate beliefs and rituals springing from those beliefs have power within themselves, whether it lingers in the words, or whether, as you say, it's the power of the words to call supernatural aid.

Having the right ritual or incantation to use in specific need is dependent on knowledge--the more you know, the more specific you can be. Also, if you have belief in the power of ritual, rather than in the religion from which it springs, then you can judiciously pull elements from several sources and combine them to tailor an incantation to specific need.