Why would his violence not manifest that way against our protagonist?

It's a perspective thing. There are ways to show that same concept in a way that doesn't invite the viewer to participate. I felt, when watching that shot, that I was being invited to enjoy Jo's fear, not that I was being invited to identify with her. Just a few moments earlier, as she fumbled for her flashlight, that was ID with her. That shot, she was suddenly transformed into an object for my putative pleasure.

Needless to say, pleasure was not had.

that I was being invited to enjoy Jo's fear

Well, this shows that audiences come from all angles.

That creeped the shit out of me. It reminded me that evil people (often men) perpetrate violence. I empathized with Jo, I felt her fear. I didn't enjoy it at all, and I didn't feel like I was supposed to. I felt like I was supposed to have the crap scared out of me.

I didn't think it was sexy that she was being attacked. Maybe that's because I have breasts.

Just a few moments earlier, as she fumbled for her flashlight, that was ID with her. That shot, she was suddenly transformed into an object for my putative pleasure.

I'm with Ailleann. All I felt was what Jo felt. I still identified with her in that moment.

Just a few moments earlier, as she fumbled for her flashlight, that was ID with her. That shot, she was suddenly transformed into an object for my putative pleasure.

I'm with Ailleann. All I felt was what Jo felt. I still identified with her in that moment.

I'm still of that opinion as well. I took it as a moment I didn't want to watch, not one that I was meant to enjoy.

I also Comm'd Ailleann's numberDean remark, 'cause that is funny and true.

I felt, when watching that shot, that I was being invited to enjoy Jo's fear, not that I was being invited to identify with her. Just a few moments earlier, as she fumbled for her flashlight, that was ID with her. That shot, she was suddenly transformed into an object for my putative pleasure.

I was still in the identification space with the shot, and didn't get the objectification read from it, or at least no more so than when Vampira's doing that jaw grab thing with Dean in Dead Man's Blood.

I feel like I'm having a hard time explaining, though, why that shot bothers me less than countless others. I suspect it's the combination of agency and identification space? BUaBS, I have identification space, but Jo's agency's removed (returned later, but not in the same way that it is in No Exit).

I don't think Lum or Sisabet think there's an agenda, just a strong and not very thought out dependence on some tropes that are, when viewed as a group, deeply disturbing.

nods

And it's one of the things that's a source of irritation and eye-rolly-ness for me. Again, I haven't seen the majority of S2, and I've been told that S2 is much better about using those tropes. But when Pete and I were watching S1, it got to the point that if an episode featured an attractive girl, we expected her to be menaced and probably dead.

I love the horror genre, and I understand that violence against women is a recurring trope in the genre. I don't think Kripke and the rest of the SPN crew have a particular agenda, but I do think they're not paying close enough attention to how often they use certain tropes, and how often they're playing those tropes straight instead of doing something different with them.

just a strong and not very thought out dependence on some tropes that are, when viewed as a group, deeply disturbing.

Am I the only one who saw two shots of Jo in the vid? One was from Bad Sign but the other was ... not.

Am I the only one who saw two shots of Jo in the vid? One was from Bad Sign but the other was ... not.

I watched it on iMeem at work. I might have missed one or two due to connection and gooseflesh issues.

The vid gave me serious chills.

I think the two clips I noticed of Jo were from BUaBS. I didn't see Ellen.

I'm... starting to feel not quite normal.

I really like the vid, for several reasons. Not least of which is the counterpoint of the song with the imagery, and my deep and abiding love of "Violet" dating back to 1995.

I'm with Plei and Nutty et al on the disturbing sexualization of violence as an unconscious cultural trope followed by and contributed to Kripke and Co.

This. I mean, it's not a show about women saving themselves, but OTOH they're not Captivity...

Also, this. That show's been done. Called BtVS (although even there, it wasn't always true).

This statement pings me hard. I want not just One Show to love and cuddle for all time (though I will) but a wide variety of shows to love and cuddle. I want a dozen shows about women saving themselves and others*. True that all shows can't be all things, but I really appreciate when fans call out Skanky Gender (or Race) Issues, especially in such an artistic manner.

Supernatural has given (and surely will continue to give) us wonderful stories of family and brotherhood and sacrifice. I don't believe that more balanced gender roles and less sexualized violence would be incompatible with that.

Has anyone compiled the episode census stuff into a chart or totalled the numbers or anything?

* And not just saving people, hunting things, but fucking up and drinking too much and hurting people and and and...

Paraphrasing from a review of one of my favorite books, I would claim for women the entire spectrum of human behavior.