I felt, when watching that shot, that I was being invited to enjoy Jo's fear, not that I was being invited to identify with her. Just a few moments earlier, as she fumbled for her flashlight, that was ID with her. That shot, she was suddenly transformed into an object for my putative pleasure.

I was still in the identification space with the shot, and didn't get the objectification read from it, or at least no more so than when Vampira's doing that jaw grab thing with Dean in Dead Man's Blood.

I feel like I'm having a hard time explaining, though, why that shot bothers me less than countless others. I suspect it's the combination of agency and identification space? BUaBS, I have identification space, but Jo's agency's removed (returned later, but not in the same way that it is in No Exit).

I don't think Lum or Sisabet think there's an agenda, just a strong and not very thought out dependence on some tropes that are, when viewed as a group, deeply disturbing.

nods

And it's one of the things that's a source of irritation and eye-rolly-ness for me. Again, I haven't seen the majority of S2, and I've been told that S2 is much better about using those tropes. But when Pete and I were watching S1, it got to the point that if an episode featured an attractive girl, we expected her to be menaced and probably dead.

I love the horror genre, and I understand that violence against women is a recurring trope in the genre. I don't think Kripke and the rest of the SPN crew have a particular agenda, but I do think they're not paying close enough attention to how often they use certain tropes, and how often they're playing those tropes straight instead of doing something different with them.

just a strong and not very thought out dependence on some tropes that are, when viewed as a group, deeply disturbing.

Am I the only one who saw two shots of Jo in the vid? One was from Bad Sign but the other was ... not.

Am I the only one who saw two shots of Jo in the vid? One was from Bad Sign but the other was ... not.

I watched it on iMeem at work. I might have missed one or two due to connection and gooseflesh issues.

The vid gave me serious chills.

I think the two clips I noticed of Jo were from BUaBS. I didn't see Ellen.

I'm... starting to feel not quite normal.

I really like the vid, for several reasons. Not least of which is the counterpoint of the song with the imagery, and my deep and abiding love of "Violet" dating back to 1995.

I'm with Plei and Nutty et al on the disturbing sexualization of violence as an unconscious cultural trope followed by and contributed to Kripke and Co.

This. I mean, it's not a show about women saving themselves, but OTOH they're not Captivity...

Also, this. That show's been done. Called BtVS (although even there, it wasn't always true).

This statement pings me hard. I want not just One Show to love and cuddle for all time (though I will) but a wide variety of shows to love and cuddle. I want a dozen shows about women saving themselves and others*. True that all shows can't be all things, but I really appreciate when fans call out Skanky Gender (or Race) Issues, especially in such an artistic manner.

Supernatural has given (and surely will continue to give) us wonderful stories of family and brotherhood and sacrifice. I don't believe that more balanced gender roles and less sexualized violence would be incompatible with that.

Has anyone compiled the episode census stuff into a chart or totalled the numbers or anything?

* And not just saving people, hunting things, but fucking up and drinking too much and hurting people and and and...

Paraphrasing from a review of one of my favorite books, I would claim for women the entire spectrum of human behavior.

I'm with Plei and Nutty et al on the disturbing sexualization of violence as an unconscious cultural trope followed by and contributed to Kripke and Co.

See, I am conscious of this in some cases, and quite angry when I see it, but I wouldn't have picked Supernatural as a major offender. To me, it's not even in the same league. I understand the points that have been made here and respect them enough to watch with an eye out for that in the future, but I still think this show is much more equal than even some non horror, mainstream network shows out there.

This statement pings me hard. I want not just One Show to love and cuddle for all time (though I will) but a wide variety of shows to love and cuddle. I want a dozen shows about women saving themselves and others*.

Honestly, I want that too. But I don't want that in Supernatural. The story is between the two brothers and that is what I have been tuning in to see for the past two years. I don't know how you give them someone to save without it being a woman at least part of the time. Although an all male victim show would be an experiment that I would be behind 100%.

Although an all male victim show would be an experiment that I would be behind 100%.

Especially if the then-saved victim tries to make out with one of the brothers at the end.



... What?

I don't know how you give them someone to save without it being a woman at least part of the time.

It's not just the numbers (though I'd like to see them) but again, how the violence is filmed. Consider Dead in the Water:

Girl dies: in bikini, swimming in lake

Boy dies: yanked into kitchen sink

Amy A almost dies: naked in bathtub

Ain't nothing sexy about a guy dying w/ his head stuck in a sink. Or I'll put it this way: try to imagine a man in the Amy A bathtub scene. (HA! I just flashed to that episode of Smallville with Clark in the red bike shorts submerged in krypto juice and rescued by Lex. Not the same thing. But maybe as close as we'll get with a guy.)

I still think this show is much more equal than even some non horror, mainstream network shows out there.

You are probably right on that. Any you have in mind? Honestly curious. Are you talking procedurals? The only one I watch is Bones, and the victims are usually long dead.

I started doing this last night... here's a breakdown of the first six episodes:

Pilot: female perp (ghost); male victims (Car Dude, Sam) - targeted for gender male perp (demon); female victim (Jess) - targeted for identity

Wendigo: genderless creature; male victims (campers, Roy), equal gender menacing - targeted for location

Dead In The Water: male child (ghost); mixed victims (two males, one female), mixed menacing (one woman, one man, one child) - targeted for relationship to spirit

Phantom Traveler: genderless creature; genderless victims (entire flight) - targeted for location

Bloody Mary: female perp (ghost); mixed victims - targeted due to specifics of urban legend/ghost's specific MO

Skin: creature, gender assumed male; female victims, mixed menacing - targeted due to gender

This kind of breakdown doesn't speak to the appearance of the different dead and/or menaced wrt sexuality. I would need to do a visual recap for that, and that's largely interpretive.

I guess for me, where gender becomes an issue is who is targeted and why, not how they appear. To me the appearance is more a factor of the construction of television as a whole, rather than the individual intentions of the creators.

Perhaps I'm too generous to the patriarchy of the Male 18-34 Demographic.