I don't think Kripke et al have an agenda, even if I also believe they haven't exactly tried to subvert any social norms already in place.

I don't think Lum or Sisabet think there's an agenda, just a strong and not very thought out dependence on some tropes that are, when viewed as a group, deeply disturbing.

I think Kripke is an old man in more ways than one. Often well-meaning, but, not often a deep thinker about the traditions in which he participates.

sexualized violence

A good example (I thought) of this, for Jo, is Wossname Serial Killer groping her hair/neck in the coffin in No Exit. It was possible to show her scared and menaced in other ways, but the visual composition of that shot was unpleasantly vibey. I know some disagree with me on that one.

Quite often the people being tortured involve Sam and Dean, and I don't see them as less sexualized in this show than women.

No, but they're not victims, either. They have agency. Sexualizing Sam and Dean (which the show absolutely does) operates differently than sexualizing the victims. When you sexualize the victims, you sexualize their victimhood.

Sam and Dean are sexy in part because they're heroes, not victims. Even when they're being beaten up, they're still heroes and it's hot to see Dean with a bruise and know he's still going to kick ass as soon as he gets back on his feet.

I do see that as a different thing. YBMV.

But I look at that vid, and I'm both fascinated and horrified: there's been that much? Holy cow.

I get that. I think the impact is also intensified because of the format, though.

This. I mean, it's not a show about women saving themselves, but OTOH they're not Captivity...

Also, this. That show's been done. Called BtVS (although even there, it wasn't always true).

I may be socially irresponsible (and I mean that honestly, not snarkily) but when a show like this one offers other meat for me to chew on (such as family, sacrifice, the experience of extreme outsiderdom), I don't tend to watch with an eye toward where it's playing right into uncomfortable and squicky social *values* for lack of a better word. I get up in arms about the in-your-face stuff like Girls Gone Wild and The Pussycat Dolls and clothes for six-year-olds with "PRINCESS" printed on the ass.

And I know you love the show! I'm glad you do. You write good fic!

No, but they're not victims, either. They have agency. Sexualizing Sam and Dean (which the show absolutely does) operates differently than sexualizing the victims. When you sexualize the victims, you sexualize their victimhood.

Agreed. (Which, actually, is why I disagree with Nutty about Jo in No Exit. Jo had agency in the episode.)

Jo had agency in the episode.

She did, ill-advised and ill-informed as it was, but that scene totally wigged me out. Made it interesting to write about it, and still gives me the chills thinking about it.

Jo had agency in the episode

In the episode, yes. Which is why that one shot is so disorienting and offputting.

She did, ill-advised and ill-informed as it was, but that scene totally wigged me out. Made it interesting to write about it, and still gives me the chills thinking about it.

It was viscerally disturbing.

OK, so I'll come out of the closet as the Worst Feminist Ever, but...

The perpetrator in No Exit was known for violence against women. A violence which was sexualized by the perp. Why would his violence not manifest that way against our protagonist?

I see it when people point it out, but this kind of stuff just doesn't ping me at all. I'm going to feminist Hell, but oh well.

Why would his violence not manifest that way against our protagonist?

It's a perspective thing. There are ways to show that same concept in a way that doesn't invite the viewer to participate. I felt, when watching that shot, that I was being invited to enjoy Jo's fear, not that I was being invited to identify with her. Just a few moments earlier, as she fumbled for her flashlight, that was ID with her. That shot, she was suddenly transformed into an object for my putative pleasure.

Needless to say, pleasure was not had.