I don't think the FAQ/Etiquette pages were migrated over. I also noticed (while looking for them) that the "About" info doesn't include our latest move to this new site!

We may not have those here yet.

I went to the Wayback Machine!

Here is out etiquette The Buffistas are an inclusive, welcoming, and flame-free community. Play nice, and you've found a home away from home. If you make personal attacks or offensive posts, or try to start a fight, you will be shunned. However, newbie mistakes are usually corrected gently and informally. Lurk for a while and you'll learn our language.

We talk a lot. Most of our ramblings are in the Natter threads --- if it's off-topic for another thread, that's probably where it belongs. Please don't natter in the bureaucracy threads, in Sunnydale Press, our general announcements thread, or in Apocalypse, our personal announcements thread. Misplaced Natter may be deleted.

Don't post spoilers outside the spoiler threads. We consider spoilers to be anything that has not yet been broadcast. This includes TV Guide-type listings, actors' contracts, etc. --- basically, anything that has not yet been broadcast belongs in a spoiler thread.

We have many posters who aren't from North America and are therefore half a season or more behind. Don't taunt them. Please keep all discussion of current episodes in the NAFDA threads. The UnAmerican thread is obviously a safe zone, but so are Natter and Buffista Bureaucracy.

If you do accidentally post a spoiler, please either delete it or white it out. If you don't, a Stompy Foot may do it for you.

A few board members are considered to be Big Stompy Feet. They are wise, they are considerate, they are smart, and they have smiting capability. The Feet can delete any post at any time or refuse service to anyone, but they use their super-powers for good. If they ask for your cooperation with something, please comply.

While we may occasionally mention Buffy or Buffista-related goods, please don't spam us. Thanks. Besides, we all have large penises already.

Consistent demon-like behavior may earn a warning from the Stompy Feet. If you don't listen to the warning, you will be suspended for two months. And if you come back unreformed, you will be banned. Banning is rare and very much a last resort. Just FYI, our back-up boards on WorldCrossing and PeoplesForum are also Buffista Zones, and are subject to the same etiquette rules as the Phoenix.

The FAQ, which is strongly recommended reading, is that-a-way. We have a fairly elaborate community, with many specialty boards, something of a local dialect, and many posters from all over the world. So read the FAQ, as it will acquaint with you with the personality of the board. If you have questions or concerns about Buffista policies, please visit the Bureaucracy thread located on the right sidebar. Discussions about administration, moderation, and community take place in this thread. If you encounter etiquette problems, this is also the place to air grievances.

The Buffista Credo was well summed up by Julie who posted the following, This isn't a chat room. It's not even a particularly fast moving posting board. Partly, that's because I bet you dollars to doughnuts the vast majority of the people on this board spend a lot more of their time here reading, than writing. And partly that's because people here are aware that every bit of black text they put up on the screen, and every time they press post message, they are telling the community something about themselves. Most people want that to be a positive message.

If a thread isn't moving fast enough for you then you have two choices. You can leave it alone and not poke it. Or you can make a meaningful contribution that shows knowledge of your audience, is written in language and a style designed to elicit responses from your readers and that makes you accessible to the people with whom you seem to want to share your time.

There are no short cuts to fitting in. And when you're one of eight hundred registrations and a couple of hundred active posters? The onus is going to rest entirely in your lap. Welcome to the Phoenix Board! If you want a more Buffista-esque look at this whole etiquette thing, crammed with filky goodness, go here

We should probably drop that onto the About page (with edits around the FAQ/filk, which I believe were going to be archived for posterity).

The Buffistas are an inclusive, welcoming, and flame-free community. Play nice, and you've found a home away from home. If you make personal attacks or offensive posts, or try to start a fight, you will be shunned. However, newbie mistakes are usually corrected gently and informally. Lurk for a while and you'll learn our language.

I think this is where we have a place to update. Perhaps a better word than "shunned"! This seems like written more to a newbie audience. And also some more explicit language for inclusive, welcomeing and flame-free (does anyone flame anymore???) with some of the links provided?

Aurelia thank you for what you said.

The conversation in GBBR might now resemble a pile-on, because KB and Laura deleted the comments to which we were responding. When that conversation was still intact, it looked quite different.

The conversation thereafter might be a pile on. I can't tell. I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm also not sure that's the real issue.

I had to take a break from it. My adult son spent time in diapers last year, and the worry of incontinence still weighs on him. I've been trying hard to keep my buttons out of reach.

To the extent the Bureau convo resembles a pile-on, we should not lose sight of the fact that it is also just how we do our disagreement post-mortem. bon bon once said:

This always happens when there's a gash in the world here-- we plaster it with hundreds or thousands of posts. We just do. It's painful to read when you want the discussion over, but I don't think it can be stopped, and it always wears itself out after awhile.

I remembered the gist and was able to find the post easily, because it is so right.

I don't think it is helpful or healthy to accuse the people who need to talk things out of "piling on." Laura and KB haven't been here for days. They're not here to be piled on. The people who are still talking are taking great care be intentional about how we relate to each other in this community.

Java cat, I don't think anyone wanted KB and Laura to leave. I do not think anyone is shunning or would shun them. You said:

I feel like reaching out to Katie and Laura, and will, just to say that I hope they give themselves a cooling off period, then come back.

If you feel like it, you should do that. Personally, I figured KB and Laura were already giving themselves a cooling off period. They pretty much said (i.e. this is a paraphrase) they were out of here, because they couldn't (didn't want to?) have the conversation.

I think this is the basic right of it, but maybe state clearly that talking about it in Bureau if further discussion seems warranted isn't (necessarily) an escalation... just a lateral move. And, I mean, also that "Hey, can we take this to email privately?" or whatever is also a completely acceptable request. That is, taking a specific discussion to email - doesn't mean a general conversation for whoever has a thing to say or ask is prohibited or anything.

I agree with the first part. I just want to say one thing about the email aspect of this. Of course that's a valid approach whenever people in an online group have disagreements. Nothing I'm about to say is meant to imply it is wrong to decide to email on your own.

In the inciting incident here, however, I think sj did the harder, better thing by bringing up her concerns on the board, rather than privately. This was not a personal dispute. It was not:

KB: "Teacups sucks!"

sj: "My husband is a teacup. Pistols at dawn, in Weehawken!"

Laura: "I'm a little teapot short and stout..."

KB unwittingly breached a community standard of courtesy by unintentionally furthering an ableist idea. To diffuse the tension, Laura cracked an ill-timed joke that wouldn't have felt like a problem, had the circumstances been different.

Since the circumstances were what they were, the joke made it feel like sj should not speak her mind. (I DON'T think Laura intended that, either. I think she was trying to help. It just didn't help.)

If sj had emailed KB and/or Laura, there was nothing to prevent Buffista X from coming in and using the same ableist term, 50 posts later. It was important that (someone in) the community said, "Let's not have that here."

I don't want people who would speak out on an issue (rather than a personal dispute), to feel pressured to back channel, instead. Because we're a conflict avoidant group, it's really easy to feel pressured to not speak up, or only bring up on-board concerns off the board. I don't want to leave the idea that sj (or any of us) should have taken it to email. The thing happened on the board. It is not wrong to explore it on the board. I know you weren't saying the "should have" part at all, JenP. You made that clear. I just think it's a short emotional hop for Buffistas to get from "could have emailed" to "should have emailed."

sj, you did the right thing by speaking up in thread. Please don't second guess yourself. I know you didn't even know that aspect of my son's story when you did so, so it meant something to me that you voiced your principled objection on the board. It means something to me that this is a community where that matters.

Two of the things about this that strike me as so sad:

• sj and Laura both usually give board disagreements a wide berth (KB too, I think)

• sj and Laura have been two of the members keeping on the lights at B.org, when so many of us flitted off

It comes back to what NoiseDesign said:

I know that we want a solution where everyone comes out feeling good about things, but that is rarely possible. This is where the very hard choices about choosing where you stand comes into play. Almost always there will be outcomes where not everyone is satisfied.

I think that's where we are. We cannot do anything else to make our points to KB and Laura. Maybe in some time, they'll revisit what happened and return. We cannot control that.

My adult son spent time in diapers last year, and the worry of incontinence still weighs on him.

::Raises hand::. Me, too, Cindy. This was one of the upshots of my "troubles" starting in March 2019 for a while. I totally, totally get where you're coming from and appreciated sj pointing it out very much. Also, you interpreted my intent with the e-mail thing precisely right. Thanks for fleshing that out. Could not agree more that sj was 100% in the right for bringing it up in thread, and I thank her for that courage. Absolutely.

It comes back to what NoiseDesign said:

"I know that we want a solution where everyone comes out feeling good about things, but that is rarely possible. This is where the very hard choices about choosing where you stand comes into play. Almost always there will be outcomes where not everyone is satisfied."

I think that's where we are. We cannot do anything else to make our points to KB and Laura. Maybe in some time, they'll revisit what happened and return. We cannot control that.

Agree.

Separately - agree that the word "shunning" could use an update.

Post Deleted!

Jen, I'm going to reply in Natter.

Cindy’s teacup scenario pretty much summed it up except then Laura doubled down that “no one” which I took to me all people not just her and KB ever means the diaper comments to be ableist. In which I politely told her that was not the case and told her it hurt that I felt she was being dismissive. After which I think she doubled down again, but I cannot remember that exactly what happened next.

Sophia, after this week I may be able to give some input on the language. My brain is otherwise occupied for the next few days.