A thread to discuss naming threads, board policy, new thread suggestions, and anything else that has to do with board administration and maintenance. Guaranteed to include lively debate and polls. Natter discouraged, but not deleted.
Current Stompy Feet: Jon B, P.M. Marcontell, Liese S., amych, msbelle, shrift, Dana, Laura
Stompy Emerita: ita, DXMachina
My adult son spent time in diapers last year, and the worry of incontinence still weighs on him.
::Raises hand::. Me, too, Cindy. This was one of the upshots of my "troubles" starting in March 2019 for a while. I totally, totally get where you're coming from and appreciated sj pointing it out very much. Also, you interpreted my intent with the e-mail thing precisely right. Thanks for fleshing that out. Could not agree more that sj was 100% in the right for bringing it up in thread, and I thank her for that courage. Absolutely.
It comes back to what NoiseDesign said:
"I know that we want a solution where everyone comes out feeling good about things, but that is rarely possible. This is where the very hard choices about choosing where you stand comes into play. Almost always there will be outcomes where not everyone is satisfied."
I think that's where we are. We cannot do anything else to make our points to KB and Laura. Maybe in some time, they'll revisit what happened and return. We cannot control that.
Agree.
Separately - agree that the word "shunning" could use an update.
Jen, I'm going to reply in Natter.
Cindy’s teacup scenario pretty much summed it up except then Laura doubled down that “no one” which I took to me all people not just her and KB ever means the diaper comments to be ableist. In which I politely told her that was not the case and told her it hurt that I felt she was being dismissive. After which I think she doubled down again, but I cannot remember that exactly what happened next.
Sophia, after this week I may be able to give some input on the language. My brain is otherwise occupied for the next few days.
people not just her and KB ever means the diaper comments to be ableist
Honestly, even if that were true (and it's not), it's still harmful and still needed to be addressed. This is one of those times in which if you're not a part of the community calling it out, you don't get an "opinion." It is not okay for someone who is not disabled to tell a disabled person that they shouldn't take offense or call it out because it wasn't meant that way. That is when you say, "I'm so sorry. I didn't think about it like that. Thank you for letting me know." (And obviously this comment isn't for you, sj, as none of this is new information. Just clarifying for the conversation.)
I had to step away for a few days, celebrate my sister's birthday online with her on Tues., take a hike (literally) yesterday. The excerpts below stand out to me. I feel all the wordiness itself accreting in a massive blizzard makes it all more difficult. Sorry to add to it.
> Glamcookie: We can't let it go - that's the problem here. We can "let it go" in terms of the call out and discussion, but it will fester in us and we will not forget how these convos go because they have consequences for us. These convos let us know who is safe and who is not, and that is so painful when it's our friends.
> Atropa: I’m going to be very blunt: we will not be the exception to the usual in this. Because no matter how good our intentions, no matter how safe and welcoming we want this space to be, people can never be perfect, and no one will ever 100% agree on context and intent.
> Glamcookie: I am past the point in my life where I feel like I'm going to just smile and ignore something that I find hurtful, especially around people who I consider to be friends.
> David: Laura, sj did not object to you calling Trump a baby. She objected to the phrase "Diaper Don"
> Laura: An expression I have never used. If I had I would have apologized, as Katie did when it was pointed out.
>Topic!Cindy: Hec, Laura never used "Diaper Don." Katerina Bee did, BUT people responded under the assumption that KB didn't mean to be ableist when she said it, either.
> Laura: I apologize if my comments felt dismissive. That was certainly not my intent, as I would never dismiss your feelings and never want you to feel hurt. I was trying to return the thread to being lighthearted and failed quite spectacularly.
> Trudy Booth: Call out is the term that has been being used for a while now and it’s accurate.
> Trudy Booth: One of the things that makes it less of a conversation is the piling on phenomenon - which has caused us problems before. Even if everyone is being measured and thoughtful in their comments, after ten or twenty of them the aggregate is pretty aggressive.
> t- Laura and Katie were not driven away with pitchforks and torches. They both flounced.
Katie and Laura did not flounce. They both apologized, then left because: (1) it was excruciating for Katie, who did apologize, and (2) Laura apologized *and* expounded on her apology, and it was rejected.
One can let it go, Glamcookie. I hope you aren’t structuring this as either you and sj or Katie & Laura. If you are, well. I hope you don’t. I choose all of us. The nerdiness, the pop culture-ness, sometimes in spite of, more often because of the wordiness, the splendid writers. I choose all of us. I’m not a fan of all parts of us -- the cliques, sometime mean-girlness, even from the nicest people; not a fan of public pronouncements of virtuous behavior that don’t manifest to all Buffista members and posts about how can you expect that, not everyone is equal. Still people here try. It’s a unique place. I choose us.
I will cc my post to Katie and Laura. That’s all I can do. Reaching out is not hard to do, I've done it, and it’s wonderful when people come back. John Horner came back to FB for years. Raq and Freya returned in different degrees. How great is it to see their pixels again! I choose us, and another hike, literally.
I'll be blunt. I will not erase the lived experience that is being referenced here by sj and Glamcookie in order for us to feel like the board is one big happy family.
I want to be part of a community that stands up and takes notice when someone says this is hurtful to them and their life experience as part of a marginalized group.
I'm less interested in being part of a community who will let it slide for the feeling that we all will feel good and just get along.
If folks don't like me for that, you know, that's okay.
it was excruciating for Katie, who did apologize
"Consider me schooled" is not an apology, though. If it had been, this might have gone pretty differently.
