Start with Neal dressing Peter, continue with Neal rushing to save a delirious Peter's life (and Peter being all noble), and then the whole "I'm glad I know the .... people .... I know" speech and the pledge not to lie to each other?

People, be gentle with me.

And how much reveal did we actually get about Sophie's backstory?

Yeah, I'm confused. Was that her aunt? Was it a fellow con artist? Why did she sell out Charlotte about their family to the bad guy afterward?

Any thoughts from the hivemind on this?

Mad Men:

The problem with Roger is not that you're supposed to understand his viewpoint(s), but that you're supposed to like him anyway.

Yeah, this is it in a nutshell. I'm supposed to still like him, but this level of racism puts it over the edge for me and I find I can't. I feel mildly sad about it, but I don't feel like I need to spend any time liking him; he wouldn't like me.

I think this is the same disconnect that I get with Lost in Translation. I'm the wrong Other. I'm supposed to look at Roger and think, this is how people like me felt about minorities, just a short while ago. But instead, I have to think, this is how people felt about me. And still do, as I am reminded in current facebook posts.

And I don't think the depiction of Roger's racism is exploitative, but I do think I don't want to like him as intended by the show. I do think the depiction of the actual Japanese characters contains elements of racism, every bit as much as Roger's overt statements. I do think the show expects me to crow in victory with Don by him outsmarting the Japanese execs by use of a highly problematic (albeit influential, including in a meta way in Japanese culture) book written at the behest of the US Office of War Information.

I agree that the attitude depicted is probably accurate to the time. I probably had more trouble with Dave's family accepting our marriage than I did with mine. I eventually won his grandmother over, though, before her death. Which is what I was saying about denying the ability to get to know someone. She was confronted with me, had no choice about my entry to the family. But over time she allowed herself to get to know me and later acknowledged that I had changed her perceptions about Japanese people.

Nonetheless, I find it difficult to watch, and have an altered reaction now to the character. Just as I don't expect to return to a point where I actively like Pete after his rape.

White Collar:

Neal dressing Peter.

Needed its own post just to say, GUH.

There wasn't any real reason for Neal to be in Peter's house at that point, was there? He was just there to dress Peter.

I would really be curious as to how a non-slashy person views what's happening on this show. It seems way past slash and damn near past subtext to me.

and - somewhat significantly - Don's last conquest called him "Dick."

And did you notice how much she looked like Anna?

But do you believe Don when he tells Roger "You said 'welcome aboard'"? Because I don't.

I did, until I saw Don's little smile in the elevator.

Neal dressing Peter. A little something inside me just up and died in absolute pleasure.

Oh, my god, yes.

Such intimacy between them.

Liese, I found the whole thing quite jarring and moved me out of being amused by Roger to rooting for his inevitable self-destruction.

I just rewatched the start of White Collar.

There really wasn't any reason for the dressing scene except to make us happy, was there?

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Are we really supposed to like any of the Mad Men characters? They're all awful in some way or other. Well, Peggy and Joan - no, I find them more sympathetic but they can be awful, also. It's like watching aliens who are very human shaped so I can forget, for a while, that they are so damn weird, but it always comes out.

I would really be curious as to how a non-slashy person views what's happening on this show. It seems way past slash and damn near past subtext to me.

I think I made an almost identical post last week. Peter was talking about falling in love with your CI because of all the time together and close contact. And then he says, "that's why my wife is glad my CI is a man." or something similar.

I still haven't seen this weeks ep, but i need to remedy that.

I'm supposed to look at Roger and think, this is how people like me felt about minorities, just a short while ago. But instead, I have to think, this is how people felt about me.

Ah. Of course. Thank you for putting it like that.

And in completely other news:

the whole "I'm glad I know the .... people .... I know" speech

Seriously! The text is really only barely sub.