Which would produce the most irritation for the other brother...a chibi!Hunter who's imprinted on Dean, or one imprinted on Sam?

I think Sam wouldn't be surprised by a proto!Dean (though I think this brand of hunter would die a lot quicker without proper training, because Dean's no slouch at throwing himself into danger). But a proto!Sam somehow feels weird as a solo hunter. Not that Sam isn't more than competent as a hunter on his own, but I think the show's portrayal falls into the "he's the younger brother" mindset moreso than maybe the character deserves. Sam without a Dean to watch over him feels weird. (And I think Dean would just try to protect a proto!Sam...)

Remind me which ones these were again?

Well, he was black, and turned on the boys, and was generally untrustworthy?

but I don't get why she turned to the Dark Side.

I thought she was getting off on the power.

The Nazi speech, from a black person's perspective, is not that Nazi. It's something I've heard black people say and mean. So that part didn't ping me.

What I found interesting was the assumption that the cops were all white (I had no idea--I remembered two of them, who were white, and couldn't have told you if the others were green or not). Would the scenario be made significantly better or worse by the following:

• Gordon's innocence?
• More black cops?
• Force being used to get Gordon to submit?

See, for me, more black cops makes no difference. If he'd been innocent, it'd have been dependent on the precise scenario. If he'd been innocent and beaten into submission, definitely.

Without either innocence or more brute force I didn't register anything, even intellectually.

And, as noted, that whole blacks are treacherous thing is news to me, so no ping there either.

but the conviction that he was the stronger of the two, and thus the most likely to be able to kill the demon?

Yes. Which is stupid, given that he doesn't know jack about demons, but I'm willing to accept that he just didn't think that through. Sort of.

I'd have liked to see his soldier façade explicitly crack some, or get more of a sense that he wasn't a great soldier. I didn't see the play of emotions across his face that'd nuance it for me.

ITA, and having seen him before, that may be limited range on the actor's part.

That being said--who said Sam was in his army? Still, I'd ask for more there.

Well, Jake kind of did, IIRC, but that was just before he knocked Sam across the yard.

Yes, because they're always portrayed as convenience store owners and never as motel owners, which is closer to the truth.

Ha.

But seriously, I don't think I've even seen that many South Asian characters in popular culture.

Which is an issue in itself, as I see it.

At least Indian actors are getting work, right?

This makes me think of Margaret Cho's line about looking at Asian actresses and thinking, "Maybe I could play a HOOKER someday."

And, yes, I think that if SPN introduced an Indian character and then killed him off, I would be a little miffed,

A little miffed is where I am. Not surprised, not enraged, just miffed enough to point it out.

but it's the nature of the beast with this show, as someone mentioned.

Me, actually.

P-C, I'm rereading this for tone and I hope it's not coming out bitchy. Please picture me with a wry smile on my face. How gender roles and minorities play out on a given show is a topic of particular interest to me, as is how others perceive those things.

I'm a little muddled about what the YED actually wanted

askye, not just you, my friend.

How gender roles and minorities play out on a given show is a topic of particular interest to me, as is how others perceive those things.

I used to not pay attention unless I got pinged, and then I'd examine. But recently fannish outrage has left me blinking, clueless, and feeling like Pollyana, so I have to chase the beast to ground every time it comes up. I'm still pissed about some Pirates discussions I got involved in.

I thought she was getting off on the power

That makes sense, I wish there was a little bit more about that though. I kept seeing Ava as more like Sam and I realize that's a mistake, but I thikn Sam was seeing her as more like himself or Andy.

smonster, glad I'm not the only one.

I thikn Sam was seeing her as more like himself or Andy.

I think Sam was seeing her like a victim, and she was a deliberate part of that. Not bad, but not empowered.

P-C, I'm rereading this for tone and I hope it's not coming out bitchy. Please picture me with a wry smile on my face.

No bitchiness gathered.

Interesting discussion. I got more eyerolly at Lily than Jake. It didn't bother me that much that Jake has tried to kill Sam or that he died -- ETA: actually, we didn't see him die, now that I think about it --, given that's the fate of a huge number of guest stars on this show, but I got wee bit pinged by the nature of his power, which was made stronger by the fact that the actor was familiar to me from Friday Night Lights.

Minor spoilers for FNL mid season episodes:

The actor who played Jake played Ray "Voodoo" Tatum, a possible replacement quarterback and a Katrina refugee, and he was part of one of a few big race-related plotlines of the season. Later in the season, there was story arc in which one of the coaches likened the star running-back of the team (Brian "Smash" Williams), who happened to be black, to a "junkyard dog", someone fast and vicious, whose main contribution to the team was purely in terms of his physical prowess, and not fit to be a quarterback with the implications that blacks were not smart enough to be "thinking" football players. With that on the back of my mind, I felt a bit uncomfortable that they decided to give the only black character among the YED's "recruits" a physical power (and brute strength to boot) instead of mental/psychic powers others displayed. I don't know if it'd have pinged me without the FNL association though. Which goes to show how we all bring our disparate experiences to the interpretation of some of the finer shadings of perceived racism.

We're counting Lily as physical power, right?

Of course, now I want to imagine her named Lilith, and all the cast out of the garden untouchable womanness that implies.