Michele, you invoke Powers in your defense, and I'm a fan too, but I was wondering whether you let it off the hook. The first storyline is called "Who Killed Retro Girl ?" And various female characters have died over the course of the run.

On the other hand, Bendis' Daredevil run has been populated with very strong female characters who take matters into their own hands, and he has yet to put Milla in a fridge.

And on the third hand, The Pulse is currently revolving around the mystery of the murder of a female reporter.

And on the final hand, the current timeline of Secret Wars has a male superhero in peril.

This is probably a major tangent and maybe not relevant to the discussion, but I don't know any of Meltzer's work, so.

Issues like this make my head hurt, because, like Plei, I'm not bothered by it until people say I'm supposed to be bothered by it.

Plei, that will be interesting if IC goes that way especially since having read Elongated Man stories from the Silver Age (when he was frequently the backup story in Detective Comics), and given that Ralph was/is such a second (hell, third) string superhero (basically a Plas wannabe twice removed by way of Mr. Fantastic), the choice of Sue Dibney is interesting as a trigger for this since she was the most (if not only) interesting element in most of those stories.

Stop me, before I parenthesize again.

P-C, I can't speak for Misha, but here's my take:

I'd never say that women characters can't be victims in a good story. Hell, you can't have a story at all without some kind of shit happening, and with any kind of fairness, roughly half the shit should go to women.

(Of course, it's not a fair world, and a lot more than half the shit seems to happen to women characters. But that's another rant that others have ranted better than I.)

For me, the key thing is: how are these characters victims? And how do the people around them deal with it? Are they characters I care about (even in retrospect, seen through the reactions of others after their death), or are they just anonymous damsel-in-distress number 413?

The hallmarks of the literature that most pisses me off are: Only women are ever victims. They're never really characters beyond traditional feminine virtues like being pretty and soft and adored by all around them; in fact, they're adored above all others because they're practically angels. They're dead women walking -- if they're really lucky, they get to die like the bloody dull consumptive one in Little Women, and everyone's just so terribly sad. On the other hand, if it's an action story, they're offed (raped, abducted), often brutally and graphically, and it's the men's job to do something about it; the implication is that the men are protecting property. Neither the victim herself (if she lives), nor other women (although they may be included in crowd scenes) get a chance to kick the bastard's ass, because it's the role of women to be passive -- indeed, to be plot devices, sacrificed to kick off the action. In other words, John Wayne goes off to chase down the damn dirty injuns who stole the white woman, and she's no more an actor in what comes next than she was in the original crime.

By contrast, the events Who Killed Retro Girl (to take your example) kick off a widely varied response from both the costumed and non-costumed communities. John Wayne isn't here -- instead, we get to see friends, enemies, old lovers, heroes, police, the media, and the public. They all react differently. They tell us things about who Retro Girl herself was that make her much more than just the pretty one. Bendis has a world where there are heroes and non-heroes coexisting (not always smoothly) but I can believe the reactions. The victim is female, she is beloved (without being the angel/victim/damsel-in-distress type for a single panel), but I never once got the sense that she was there only to be a plot device for the boys.

What makes it worse in IC is that Sue can be and has been far more than that, but I have yet to see any sign that Meltzer knows it or cares, in spite of the fact that he's willing to take on other silver age bline spots, most notably the cold-war era black or white morality they have in dealing with villains. And there's a lot I like about the series, and that I've talked about here -- but this won't stop clawing at me.

And there's no "supposed to be bothered" about it. I'd never say that you must be bothered, but I am. Deeply and viscerally, to the point where my sense that the nasty gender politics of comics has changed is really being pretty badly shaken. Again, you don't have to feel like I do about it, but it's rather facile to dismiss the reaction with "well, a man/woman is threatened in XYZ".

Issues like this make my head hurt, because, like Plei, I'm not bothered by it until people say I'm supposed to be bothered by it.

If you'd been around here when I was foaming at the mouth during BtVS S7 (and to a lesser extent, at the damselization of Fred in A Hole in the Word (err... World), you'd know that part of my thing is that I am normally bothered by it. Thus my take that I'm not on my usual side of the fence.

Deeply and viscerally, to the point where my sense that the nasty gender politics of comics has changed is really being pretty badly shaken.

I think another part of why I think it will be addressed is knowing that the Manhunter title is coming out as a result of the events of IC.

Of course, if things go unaddressed, or get worse, I reserve the right to go all S7 on his ass.

A Hole in the Word

This is possibly the most charming typo ever.

And I'm still hoping you're right, but I'd like more than metatextual reasons to believe.

This is possibly the most charming typo ever.

Yes, I appear to need my coffee. I should go pour a cup. Soon. Now.

My comic book store didn't have a copy of Powers, or at least, if it did, it was somewhere where I couldn't find it. Of course, I was going in at 10-to-close.

Now I want it. Grr.

Amych, I see things in the text that lead me to think the way I think (what Hec pointed out is one of them), but they're all tied into the other titles I'm reading, so I'm not sure how much is there, and how much I'm reading into things because of who the key players in the current generation are.

I see things in the text... but they're all tied into the other titles I'm reading, so I'm not sure how much is there, and how much I'm reading into things because of who the key players in the current generation are.

Please, do expand. I have neither the drive full of files the *(&*&%(&$$ summer student minion was supposed to bring back by the end of last week, nor write permission on the server I need to house them on. Work has ground to a complete halt. Discussion would be much preferable to f_w or searching for work-friendly badfic.

Do you think if/when they consolidate IC into a TPB, they'll include relevant stories outside the actual mini-series?

Frank, I haven't heard anything either way, but I really doubt it -- there's a lot in the mini that depends on knowing the 'verse, but in spite of all the continuity coming in and what will surely be aftereffects in a variety of titles afterwards, it's been marketed and packaged all along as a self-contained thing.

I'd never say that women characters can't be victims in a good story. Hell, you can't have a story at all without some kind of shit happening, and with any kind of fairness, roughly half the shit should go to women.

Thanks, amy, for expanding. This is my thought as well, and I can see how, historically, this fairness hasn't really existed. Though I'd like to see someone make a catalog similar to that in Michele's link with men, just so I could really see the discrepancy. It'd also be interesting to see the reverse for both genders (times when a character does something distinctly heroic, is praised highly, or otherwise has something very positive happen to them).

I watched Adam's Rib last night, so I'm in Try to Make Sense of Gender Politics Mode.