ita, I'm with you.

It also in terms of initial reasoning behind the big secret, had to be something brutal and horrific enough to drive them to abuse their power like they did. I've tried to figure out what other route Meltzer could have used to get the characters where he needed them, and can't seem to think of an effective one.

I'm a little put off by the way Meltzer seems to be characterizing all the women except Black Canary as goody-two-shoes types that must be kept on a high moral pedestal. I mean, Superman and Batman have qualms about killing, but the only reason Diana even has recurring villains is because half of them are mythological figures that are immortal or can spring from the dead after she's lopped their heads off. And while Zatanna may be benevolent in comparison to magicians like John Constantine or Mr. E, she's not exactly one to use kid gloves in dealing with the opposition .

Who are the women in consideration, Matt? Black Canary, Zatanna -- who else has been shown to have a pure moral stance? Or are you including his work outside IC? What else does he do?

Agreed, Matt -- and it ties in to the increasing whole woman in a refrigerator, woman as property to be protected, discomfort that I have with the series. I dunno. I'm really impressed with the the way the plot is being structured and laid out, but there's little in the world that's as sure to piss me off as the whole "the womenfolk are under attack, so the menfolk have to go get vengeancey" trope. As for Canary, I'd like to see her do anything at all in the series other than be the token not-on-a-pedestal bad girl.

Mmm. I'm a little less sensitive to the trope in general than amych and Michele T. I don't see how Black Canary has done less than most of the others in the core group. I mean, no one's done anything yet, other than Ralph and his reaction -- or am I missing action?

I may be misremembering, but I thought the "conspirators" included Wonder Woman among the heroes they couldn't allow to know about the Dr. Light situation. Then there was the bit about Zatanna not liking the dishonesty (Puh-lease! The woman's whole career is built around deception and misdirection), and Oliver's overprotective chauvinism toward Dinah (which was immediately challenged, but still contributes to the overall mood) .

Plus, I think the fact that they have this big conflict about what has to be done about Dr. Light, but don't bother to consult Sue for input, is very creepifying .

But Matt, most of the superworld falls into the category of "can't know" -- GL and Flash were there too until they horned in.

I'd actually agree that Kyle and Wally shouldn't have been told, based on their reactions and the type of outlook each has. But I don't think Diana would necessarily have reacted in a similar manner. If anything, she'd have pushed for a more final solution than the one they opted for .

Of IC comments

Text: The only female character that I can think of at the moment that had a mundane husband was Donna Troy, but he and their kid bought it, right?

More text: I think the problem is that most female heroes do not have a mundane SO, with one or two major exception. Why? Because they very rarely had their own titles, and were introduced and featured as supporting characters in other titles, which immediately puts them a storytelling disadvantage. If you are going to kill off someone, it's not going to be the lead character (who is male) is will be his buddy or SO.

Some more thoughts I wonder if someone went back and did a study of how many buddies of superheroes die? For instance, in Hitman, virtually his entire male supporting cast was killed over the length of the series, some of them in horrific ways, but no one blinked.

Or is it the manner of death? Most buddies are killed in order to extract information while most SOs are killed to send a message/intimidate the hero. Is that what is offensive ?

I thought the only people that knew were the ones that were right there, right then.