*do* really resent the idea that wanting a life of one's own is somehow seen as selfish. If I want to determine my own destiny and life path, and that includes not having children because I simply don't want to be encumbered by such, why is that automatically selfish?

Even if it was selfish (and I'm not saying it is), what's so bad about that?

It's not the greatest cultural value, but it as - as you note - not generally harmful.

Anyway, I don't see it as inherently selfish. Because parenting requires you to be somewhat more selfless, the neutral position gets outflanked and made to look more selfish. But I don't think it is.

Ok, so this conversation is making me appreciate the Bitches SO very much right now because on KO.org(Yeah, yeah, I know) comments Keith made about making babies with his co-ed are making people lose their damn minds.(But, dude, sir you're 47...she's 23. Unless saying "sorry, dear, that's before your time," gets you hot...but pardon my snarky, mad jealous digression. I don't even care...just have a lot of "kids' table" snark I hate to waste, right? And I'd keep my box in a box, well, never mind..) But thanks, y'all, for not being so personal about your personal shit.

My father's parents never rose to the occasion. They were smart people who should never have had children.

Even if it was selfish (and I'm not saying it is), what's so bad about that?

It's not the greatest cultural value, but it as - as you note - not generally harmful.

Anyway, I don't see it as inherently selfish.

David, I'm not trying to all up in your grill, but you are the one who described it as selfish:

I'm making a distinction here between folks saying they selfishly want to have their own free time so choose not to have kids vs. people who think they would be bad parents because of said selfishness.

If I'm misreading that, *please* explain it to me, because it sounds to me like you're saying that people who choose not to have kids in order to have their own lives *are* being selfish.

On a not-about-kids note, can I just say that having a....um, I'm not using the g-word...seeing someone? Seeing someone leaves like, NO time for b.org. I would say "and that sucks", but...well, there are compensations, frankly.

I"m enjoying it a lot. Though could i get some buffista words of advice on people who have lots of baggage and the wise-ness or lack thereof of being in some kind of relationship wtih them?

There are a lot of people with kids who I honestly think have made the world a much worse place by breeding. And more that aren't making it any better, just more highly populated.

So. Very. True.

It's funny David, when you said that about the people here rising to the occasion, I nodded in complete agreement. Whether anyone would want to is another matter.

The speculation is moot, of course, but it reminds me of the almost obligatory question I get from new clients. "Do you think I'm crazy?" In all but one case, I felt perfectly comfortable replying,"If you can wonder about that, chances are pretty good that you are not."

The fact that people here are thoughtful and wise enough to ask and answer these questions about parenting leads me to agree with your statement because thoughtful, wise people tend to come up with solutions...but in the end, it doesn't really matter except that most of us have been blessed with the option to decide whether to parent (in one way or another) or to not.

Yay meara!

Having kids and sacrificing your free time as a result doesn't make anyone a better person than anyone else. It just doesn't.

Wrod.

Parenting does *not* force all parents to grow.

See, I think it does. Not everybody grows into an Earth Mother or World's Greatest Dad, but the role requires you to do a lot more than you did before. Even incompetent and bad parents take on more responsibility than they had previously. The world might've been better if they'd not chosen parenthood, but they did have to change.

I'm going to exclude patently evil and abusive parents as outliers in this discussion.

The "you" I'm generally addressing in this discussion is the cocktail party of Buffistas, not humanity in general.

Anyway, I'm not presuming to dictate what anybody should do. Just what I think people would do. Merely my opinion. ita with migraines galore doubts her ability, but Betsy with migraines galore is still an excellent parent.

I can put my money on ita if I want to. That's what I would bet on.

If Teppy were to become a parent, I'd put my money on her too. Should Teppy become a parent? That is up to her.

Meara, cool. Really. Even if it does make me wonder if I'm the Homely Dateless Bitch.