How many Buffistas does it take to close a discussion down?

No Buffista may shut down a discussion except while acting in an official stompy capacity. If you think that nine people are wrong to suggest the discussion be stopped, you have the right to push it forward.

My understanding was that since he violated the terms of his suspension, he was banned.

That is not what happened.

Lizard says not talking about it is making her upset. Same here, obviously. Shall we gather seven other people who feel it's worth discussing?

You can spend your social capital anyway you want. I splurged and pissed some of mine away derailing conversations about cats and dieting. It wasn't a shining moment in my career as a Buffista. But I had enough in the bank. You've both got enough in the bank to make your stand here.

But let me tell you John, as your friend, as somebody that likes and respects you - it looks bad. It looks self-righteous, it looks like you want the last word, it looks graceless. He's gone. You want to hammer some principle home for all of us to understand - but I'm telling you now that is not going to happen. People do not perceive the situation the way you did. I would guess the majority of people saw Anathema as probably mieskie, and also seeing him as somebody actively engaged with and enjoying the discussion. Not somebody smirking up his sleeves and dicking us over. I don't know the truth in the matter and I don't care anymore because he's gone. But you are not going to sway people on this one.

I heard what askye said. I understand that perspective and how manipualtive and shitty mieskie was to do that. And he's gone.

Anything more polarizes people, and generates ill will and side-taking. I guarantee there will be no air clearing.

That's me speaking to you personally. It's a bad idea to drag this out. It really is.

OK then.

t edit several xpost

What I had wanted to say, and wrote earlier this afternoon, in reply to other posters:

It's snide, and it's childish, and it's every bit as cliquey and exclusive as we've been accused of being.

Without sin. First stone.

With greatest respect for your right to hold an opinion, PMM: I really don't think so.

The day I am *banned* from being a member of this community? I will take my dignity *out* the door. I will not skulk around under an assumed name; and I will not hint and tease people about me being someone *they had already banned*, and I will not have to be banned twice. (Although that is not exactly what happened, I know; he left of his own free will. But, in effect, he left to preempt banning.)

Don't try to tell me I have mieskie/Schmoker/Anathema's "sins".

I mean? I'm not trying to say I am perfect. In fact, I'm pretty damn flawed. Within recent memory I'm sure I've angered people with something I said; within slightly-less-recent memory I slipped up bad and treated one thread like backchannel, in a bad way, was gently reprimanded by ita, and-- *apologized and deleted my post*. I haven't done it again since, and I hope I won't ever again. I didn't blow up and scream at ita or make snide remarks about how stuffy and stupid you all were.

This is why *I have never been banned*.

So don't *dare* tell me I'm just like m/S/A. I have not done what he did.

I'll say it again---if he really respected this community, if he really wanted to be a part of our community, he would have accept his suspension and waited out the two months and then come back.

Wrod, askye. Connie, you say:

What did he get away with? End-running some rules but at the same time creating a niche of his own where he was becoming accepted.

-- but he didn't NEED to do that! He could have just accepted the terms of his suspension and waited the two damn months. Failing that, he could have used the new persona and not dropped any damn hints. Because? End-running some-- very important-- rules? I don't want to *live* in a community where that's an OK thing to do.

FTR, this is a board, not a chatroom, and if someone who reads these posts hours later needs to say something let them say their piece. It can be more distressing in the long run for the unsayer to let a thing remain unsaid, then for the reader to have to read another post on the unpleasant subject.

That being said, I wholly and unequivocally reserve the right to comment on this situation at some point in the near future. To bed go I.

Okay. I said that was all I was going to say, and it was, but as we're heading into dangerous territory, I'll bring up one, small, last point.

When I made my statement, when I said everyone deserves courtesy, I meant it.

John, you said you're looking at us and wondering who the hell we are?

Please do not take this as a slam, because that's not how it's intended. Remember when Madrigal, upset because of worries that *SOMEONE SHE KNEW* had about pregnant relatives in India, made a comment that you called us on WRT infanticide? You wondered how someone would feel if they were from India, and happened across the comment, or across blind acceptance of it. I am asking you (and here, I branch out to general people, not just to John) to look at your comments, and keep in mind that people who are reading them may very well be friends with the person in question. How do you think it makes them feel, to stumble across that?

Not "how does it make Mieskie/Schmoker/Anathema feel", HOW DOES IT MAKE HIS FRIENDS FEEL? Courtesy isn't just about a one on one relationship. It's not just about likes and dislikes and issues. It's about people, and it's about community. And in this community, you will find that we have posters who like him, who are friends with him, and who feel just as gut punched to read that someone they like doesn't deserve courtesy.

Everyone deserves courtesy, and here, it's official.

If that weren't true, mieske would never have been suspended in the first place.

You know, here's a thought --

this is the third, that's right, third online community I have seen explode over a small matter of courtesy over the last day and a half.

Given that we'll likely be at war in less than a day, I think it's highly probable that there's a lot of displaced fear and anger and frustration getting played out here and elsewhere.

Think about that, and then, I think, the best thing to do is to Doblerize yourself. Worked for me.

But, in effect, he left to preempt banning.

That's not so. He would've been allowed the option to stay.

But Wolfram's point is valid. I think it's a negative to drag this out, but I'm only on my own clock. People get through the board at their own pace - it's not a chat. Jess's point is also valid - if you need to make your case then go ahead.

I don't get that stuff about Mieskie's "friends", PMM, I really don't.

You're still friends with the guy after he specifically, repeatedly lied to you in public?

What makes this situation so poisonous is that, in a surprisingly literal sense of the phrase, you don't know who your friends are, if they lie to you about who they are.

PMM, I disagree with your idea that this is exactly like, or even similar to, the India-baby-killing situation.

And I'm really *not* personally interested in m/S/A. I want to talk about him as a situation, not as a person; I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about what he did. If I were talking about his own personal, uh, bad dress sense? and unsightly second head growing out of the back of his head? and fondness for canasta, which is obviously a silly game, because it has such a fun-to-say name? ... Then I think m/S/A's friends could feel quite justified in getting het up and upset with me. But I'm *not*. I'm talking about his actions. Which, you know, happened; there's a very limited range of argument that can take place over them. One can say "he didn't mean to let us know A = m". Or one can say "he was dropping hints and winking at us". But one cannot say that he did not reregister under false pretense, or that we did not choose to suspend him in his first tenure here, or that he did not lie.

If I were m/S/A-- if I were Rebecca Lizard, then you kicked me out and I reregistered as Miss Mandible (Barthelme joke) and did exactly the same dance, I would expect someone else-- in fact, I would have expected everyone else, but, you know, that's because it's MY opinion-- to be saying the same things about me that I am saying about m/S/A.

And if John, or anyone else who still liked me, had to read those posts... well, sorry, John, tough shit; I called things directly down upon myself, and if it hurts you emotionally to deal with aftermath of my actions, there's really nothing you can do. You, John, cannot take back for me the things that *I* (me, not John) *did* (past tense-- already happened). It simply doesn't work that way.

PMM, I think drawing parallels between the individual, recorded-history actions of a single person, and a semi- ethnic-slur against an entire country of people, is highly disingenuous.

Huh. We had this. Geo, Karmic, HelSparrow. All the same guy. Would get run out, and come back with a new name, try to fit in, and was far messier about letting everyone know who he was. Also, we had another one. Jono, Sephiroth, Stevie, et al.

He'd come back, ingratiate himself by behaving with some folks. Trouble was, he never made amends with the the people he pissed off, before. And the folks who were clueless about the previous identity would defend him to the death, til they too were bit. And then he'd get run out, come back with a new name, rinse, and repeat.

And we tore each other apart.

He CHANGED!!! Don't you see how he's CHANGED???? What is WRONG with you people? If you were just NICER everything would be PERFECT!

Dude. It's the same kid. In two months, he'll have pissed you off and made you nuts. Aside from that, I've always been nice to you, why are you choosing this pissant who hurt me and never apologized, over me? I've been there for you. And the next time he gets run off, I'll still be here. And you and me? We ain't friends no mo.

You have to give people a CHANCE. He messed up, but look how hard he's trying! How would you feel?

And so on. And then, eventually, the software would get smarter, or someone would complain to his ISP.

And then, when they were gone for some time, things would get back to normal. 'Course, people picked their sides and stuck to them, cliques got split up and reorganized, and the folks who were tired of the fighting moved to different playgrounds.

This is the same thing, with a different ZIP code.

John is pissed that his old pals didnt back him and skin MieskeSchmokerAnathema way back when he had fewer names.

RL is backing John.

Hec wants to go back to porning with Bitches.

Some Folks Are Very Offended.

Other Folks Want Everyone to Shut Up and Talk About Something Nice.

Some Folks Are Holier Than Thou

Some Folks Are annoying Know-It-Alls (that would be me)

And some folks dont give a rats ass and have never looked at this thread.

But this is nothing New! It's just New! here.

It will likely end with some folks stomping off, a whole lot of backchannel, and some folks who aren't any closer to agreeing.