Bureaucracy 1: Like Kafka, Only Funnier
A thread to discuss naming threads, board policy, new thread suggestions, and anything else that has to do with board administration and maintenance. Guaranteed to include lively debate and polls. Natter discouraged, but not deleted.
Current Stompy Feet: ita, Jon B, DXMachina, P.M. Marcontell, Liese S., amych
Sophia's position piece:
Hopefully I have covered all the arguments for my positions. It would be nice if someone could make the arguments for the other side, so we can have something to point people to if they want a quick summary.
Also, I would be happy to add any points to this that anyone wants.
ITEM 1: FORMAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Do we want a separate thread for actual voting discussions?
Yes: I believe that this will put the discussion in a place where it is easy to put a cap on it-- to make it end. It will also prevent people from avoiding Bureacracy and prevent day to day Bureaucratic requests from being lost. It is also a good mindset to help keep voting as something that is out of the ordinary-- not for day to day things like whether or not to have quotes in the upper corner or a B in our address bar.
ITEM 2: CLOSE DISCUSSION
Do we want to close the talking about a subject when the voting starts?
Yes: I think the discussion period is long enough, if announced ahead of time, that we can both get any ambiguities in the ballot and deal with any questions. Since I think there should be a separate discussion thread, I see it would be easy to close that thread when voting starts. If someone has a question on the wording, I think they could ask in Bureaucracy.
ITEM 3: VOTER TURNOUT
How many Buffistas does it take to make a vote count?
Sorry Jesse-- I am edging toward a number more like 30. If thirty people can't be arsed to choose yes or no on something, is it worth changing? I am afraid that 50 might be too high at some point.
Do votes of "no preference" count toward this?
No. I think that again, if 30 or so people can't be arsed to choose between yes or no, what is the point in changing. I know others don't feel this way, but...how can your vote "count" when it is not a vote? A vote of no preference is just a vote toward the majority, whichever it may be. The only point I see to it is to up the MVP, but then the MVP should just be a lower number.
ITEM 4: SECONDS
a) Should more than one Buffista be needed in order to move something to formal discussion and vote?
Yes: I think that one other buffista (see my vote below) should second, just to avoid the example where we have a discussion and voting period about changing to Swahili on the board.
b) Please choose a minimum number of people who have to agree with the original proposer before a proposal moves to formal discussion Put a number between 1 and 10 into this box, please: [ ]
One. I think people should not have to go out and drum up much support to get heard. Buffistas should have a voice. I think one is a perfect number to make sure we don't have to discuss anything truly silly proposed by a troll, but yet not silence anyone.
edited to remove my real name
Sophia's position piece:
I agree with Sophia, except I want more than one person to second. Because I'd rather there was a brake on opening up voting and the discussion thread. So I'd set it a little higher, like five or six.
(David-- I slipped and used my real name. Can you change your post too?).
Sophia, I just wanted to tell you that I saw your original (and I promise to do a brain wipe) but I think your name is lovely.
Thanks Heather! You can remember it if you want, but it is easily identifiable by work people is all, since I am pretty open about where I live and work, i feel like I should at least try to hide the name!
WTF, Jon? Is there a problem if I don't vote your way?
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across that way. And I'm too tired right now to explain myself further.
I also think seconds should be around 5 or 6 because I'd hate to see a couple of pranksters dragging into a bunch of frivolous votes.
t edit
and I fixed David's post to correct your name, Sophia.
Okay, here's my counter-position piece. In the interest of fairness, I took all the views opposite Sophia's, trying to present what I've heard argued. I've noted where it is not representative of my personal views. Hope this helps.
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Liese's Counter-Sophia Position Piece
ITEM 1: FORMAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Do we want a separate thread for actual voting discussions?
No. I believe that discussion should remain in the Bureaucracy thread. These are bureaucratic issues so I feel this is the correct place for them. Alternately, we will have two streams of conversation regarding each issue, first in Bureaucracy to propose a vote and then in the Voting thread to resolve it. I feel that we should not need a technological mechanism to close and open discussion, but the community should respect a simple post in Bureaucracy. Adding another thread adds fussiness to the process I feel is unnecessary. So far, we have been able to handle day-to-day Bureaucracy simultaneously in the thread.
ITEM 2: CLOSE DISCUSSION
Do we want to close the talking about a subject when the voting starts?
No. There are users who do not participate in the details of hashing out the ballot, but will have questions about the issues when they go to actually vote. This is a time for clarification and exploration, and users should be able to get quick answers to their questions during this time. [not the author's actual view]
ITEM 3: VOTER TURNOUT
How many Buffistas does it take to make a vote count?
I feel that this number should be deliberately high so as to prevent frivolous change. If we are aiming for a system that improves on consensus, we should strive to include as many people as possible in the decision-making process. If the community as a whole is indifferent to the issue, then perhaps it needs to rest. Later if community support for the issue has been garnered, we will be able to put it up for vote again (after a reasonable period of time has passed.) Personally, I feel that 65 is about right. To date, there is no poll that has come up, however silly, that about a hundred people haven't voted on. We have an active community. I doubt there will be many issues that make it to the polls that we are completely unwilling to vote on.
Do votes of "no preference" count toward this?
Yes. While it is possible to feel that an issue should be settled, and discussion should be closed, one may not have strong feelings either way. Voting 'no preference' allows you to register your interest in the issue, but that you would prefer to let those who passionately care about the issue settle it. It also gives a better gauge of interest in the vote, and makes the minimum voter turnout figure better reflect the community's position.
ITEM 4: SECONDS
a) Should more than one Buffista be needed in order to move something to formal discussion and vote?
No. In order to have a democratic system, any member of the board needs to feel that they have a voice. If an issue is truly silly, it will be quickly voted down. [not the author's actual view]
b) Please choose a minimum number of people who have to agree with the original proposer before a proposal moves to formal discussion Put a number between 1 and 10 into this box, please: [ ]
9. This number should be deliberately high in order to prevent board resources and Buffista patience from wearing out. If it only takes one or two people to push an issue to a vote, we may constantly be voting. I don't really think this will be a problem currently, but as we are setting up a system, we will need to abide by our rules, and we want to set up a method that is both fair and reasonable.
But why not just vote then? I can't see caring enough to see that something has an effect, but not caring enough to vote one way or another.
Why I voted "abstain" on one of the first round's questions: A choice about how long to allow discussion had to be made, given that we were going to limit that time. I really, really didn't care less what it was. (Well, if someone had said "fifty days!" I would have, but that wasn't so.) So I abstained, because I didn't have an opinion.
When it comes to a ballot with just one issue... let me think. Okay, let's say that for some reason an issue that has to do with Bitches comes up for a vote. (Not that I think this is likely, just doing a thought experiment.) I don't read Bitches. I couldn't care less about this issue. But if it matters to the Bitches that this issue is decided one way or another, I'd be happy to vote an abstention in order to help them get that decided.
Of course, I also vote in elections when there's only one option. I have strong feelings about the moral obligation to vote, even if the vote is "eh, I really don't care." I also prefer a scenario in which change is slowed by people actively saying "no, I don't want that" to one in which there has to be a majority groundswell for change before it happens, but that's a personal preference, not something I can use as an argument. (I'll vote for abstentions counting toward the MVT, personally, but again - not caring all that much.)
Does that make any sense, Burrell?
Thanks Liese. I've marked your post and mine, and hopefully when someone needs clarification, we can point them that way.
Also thanks Jon for the fix!
Thanks Leise. I've marked your post and mine, and hopefully when someone needs clarification, we can point them that way.
That makes me wonder -- at the end of each discussion period, should we post and link to an annotated ballot with the main pro and con arguments summed up as impartially as possible?
Something like,
Should we have a Gimli/Wes shippers' thread?
- The "Yes" argument: Actually, I can't think of one
- The "No" argument: Ewww. Just, ewww.
I kind of hate to even suggest it, because I'm not going to do it (see how bad I am at neutrality?) and I really hate to volunteer other people, but it might be useful....
