PMM, you're No. 13. Look at your user number.

I am, or was, the 15th most frequent poster in this thread when Ed ran the numbers and realized that 14 people did about 2/3s of the posting in here. That's the Gang of Fourteen.

But I also feel that's just too. fucking. bad for me. I can't take the heat; so I can't be a part of the community decisions right now. So I have to live with whatever is decided. Hell-- I'll probably be unhappy with what happens. Tough shit for me.

And it's the last two lines that make me weep with frustration. Seriously. Because I've heard it often. I'm just too stubborn to leave.

this essentially boils down to political differences and hits hot-button issues

OK, please explain to me, because I obviously am Autistic, or at least Asperger's-y, and definitely an INTP, why the discussions of the technical aspects of voting are "political"? And what are the "hot-button" issues?

I may seem like I'm being sarcastic, but I really really am not. As I have had to say so much in my lifetime, I really don't get this thing that you, a group of other human beings who I like and respect, get.

All I see is people saying "I don't like the fact that we've been discussing this for a long time and in a lot of detail..." leaving aside simple math issues.

I'd like you, or Hec, to put forward a fictional account of how this went in the best of all Buffista worlds -- assume that voting is a given.

Then what happened?

Here's an example:

Jon B and billytea posted for a while about prefs voting, but the majority of people said "oh that sounds to complicated, and we should go for something that's Good Enough".

So we then decided, by consensus, (which in my fable means "a profession of 150 Buffistas all posting one by one in Bureau that they agreed with the voting system and couldn't see any flaws or problems down the track") that we'd have ... what?

Would it be something like:

Votes on issues that three or more Buffistas thought were worth voting on. Only ever two issues or yes/no in the vote. Biggest number of votes wins, ten Buffista turnout enough. Stuff shelved if no clear win.

?

everything I read goes in one ear and out the other. I am fucking burned out. I have been fucking burned out for weeks.

Can you talk in a little more detail about that, please, Rebecca?

Why does the talk go in one ear and out the other?

What particularly about the talk makes you feel "burned out" -- simple volumes? Length of posts? Reading a post that seems to move toward a conclusion only to have someone think of Yet Another Wrinkle? Something else?

I have to live with whatever is decided.

You do not have to live with what is decided about the future of this board. That's the whole point.

You may, if you choose to abstain from the process, have to live with a process for deciding that you didn't have much input into.

But it will the the same as a system running one or more of the richer and more successful and free countries in the world -- it won't be based on star signs or chicken bones or frog races...

Oh, and I've got the stats with actual word counts. I'll post them later. Then we'll see who's in the damn Gang...

I'd like you, or Hec, to put forward a fictional account of how this went in the best of all Buffista worlds -- assume that voting is a given.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say that this is basically going to make me thunk my head on the keyboard to try and explain. Voting is a given, because we voted for it.

It is not the best of all possible worlds.

What I saw being discussed, and how it was being discussed, made it feel to me like those who like to drill down into the complicated and irritating aspects of voting were assuming a mandate. I voted for voting because, while I figured it wouldn't make a whit of dif in terms of satisfaction levels, it might make people at least shut up about them. I regret that vote. I really do.

Voting is a political action. Deciding on how voting will occur is also a political action. People have strong opinions. Some of them are louder and mathier than others.

I'm being serious here, not facetious:

I can't really get a handle on what we can do to solve this. I'm a solver and I can't help it. I think there is a happy medium between order and choas. I just don't see how to get there because we keep hitting an impasse that we can't get past. I think that perhaps the only way for some of us to be happy is if we don't vote or discuss at all. But we voted to vote. We could un do that, I suppose, but it seems like we just have a few issues to clear

I really, really feel that once we get past this one vote we won't have to vote, discuss, talk, argue about anything for a really long time. And when we do, it should be easy and fairly painless, because we've hashed it out now.

My feelings are hurt everytime people the 14 people are mentioned, because I feel like that means I should just not participate (which I tried to do, actually and I think I am participating less and repostng the question less becuase I don't want my count to go up). I do try to think carefully about what I am saying before I post, and that is all I can do, but in my weaker moments I feel like I am being mischaracterized as a shrill, vote-mongering pushy non-Buffista when I am really just trying to facilitate what people are trying to say And I feel weird in Bitches when I feel like people are bitching about me specifically, and I am right there!. Anyway, i think that is my own wanting people to like me issue.

Anyway, unless we want to stop the discussion altogether and just never deal with it again, can we talk about the actual proposal and trying to get past the impasse about preferential voting.

Suggestion (which was really Plei's):

We have people rank order, but ask them if they want the rank order to be counted or if they would like runoff?

Also, that when we open the 3 day discussion period, we announce in Press.

And those of us who have problems with the whole way things are being presented feel like pushy bitchy people, too.

There really isn't a solution.

I vent in bitches (and in here, and anywhere, really), because I feel like an ass for trying to remind people that people are feeling left out. So forget it. Like I said, whatever. People are going to feel out of the loop, because the loop is frustrating, and things will happen that people don't like. But it really feels to me like anytime someone dislikes a suggestion, or raises issues with it, they're treated like idiots by those who like process wonking.

There's no happy medium to be had.

What I saw being discussed, and how it was being discussed, made it feel to me like those who like to drill down into the complicated and irritating aspects of voting were assuming a mandate.

Assuming a mandate to do what?

Trust me, no matter how keyboard-thunky you're feeling at this point, I'm feeling twice as bad.

OK my question was really like this:

One day, the buffistas decided that voting would be a good idea. Next we had to decide how voting should be done. This all went very smoothly, because ____

All I want you to do is kind of complete that sentence for me, Plei -- voting may not be the best of all possible worlds, but, once voting was decided, everything very quickly became very upsetting and annoying for you.

Please tell me a story about how it could have gone otherwise, just so I can get some insight into why you hate this so much.

Or get Hec to do it, Mister Good Enough, where are you? Tell me a story about the quick, non-mathy establishment of a Good Enough buffista voting system.

Well in my best of all possible worlds this is what happens

Somebody says "Let's have a movies thread"

We vote.

We actually know whether the group Buffistas wanted a movie thread or not.

Then we don't talk about it for 6 months.

Seems pretty simple.

Yes, this.

Here's what I'm still unclear on. I've skimmed bunches and bunches of posts about preferential voting and yadda yadda yadda. I tried to read them at first but after a while the words sort of swim. And the thing I've never understood is why we need it. I mean, we're not using this voting method for thread names so what possible decisions would we have to make as a community where there are more than two options?

One day, the buffistas decided that voting would be a good idea. Next we had to decide how voting should be done. This all went very smoothly, because ____

It was all a dream, and no-one bothered to wake up?

Seriously, I think actually that perhaps the how should have been discussed and options set in place before the what was voted on.

So the tale would start with "The B's decided to see if they wanted to vote. They came up with ideas on what ways of voting would work best with their system. Emails were sent to all registered members, with a survey attached. Stats were gathered. The top two choices were narrowed down, and emails were sent again."

And so on.

voting may not be the best of all possible worlds, but, once voting was decided, everything very quickly became very upsetting and annoying for you.

In this case, it was already upsetting and annoying. I just stopped being quiet about it.