my only urge to wait would be if Jon can do one today.

I can do it this evening. Maybe we can wait until Midnight EST before we start voting?

But I specifically said I would withdraw the proposal if anyone hated it - I wasn't trying for perfection. I was trying to cut the number of votes.

It was offered as a friendly amendment if you want to be that formal (which I don't think we do).

I don't mind being disagreed with. I said right at the beginning that I was willing to withdraw it.. I simply offered a second item for the ballot to save time - something we did on the last friggin ballot. And if everyone is going to be all democractic - let me point out that one item that was democratically passed was that there would be a 3 day discussion period before people voted on things. And there was no ambiguity about that. Everyone knew what they were voting for on that one.

I'm not pushing that point. But don't accuse me of dickign around or seeking perfection I'm every bit as irritated as you folks are. Actually "rage" would be a better description of my current emotional state.

Maybe we can wait until Midnight EST before we start voting?

I am 100% in favour of this.

Ita made the proposal, Typo. Not you. You can't withdraw a proposal she made.

Betsy, I happen to agree with you. I only mentioned officers as a way to have proposals actually formalized and set up for voting once they are made.

But, yes, it's all a giant pain in the ass. And voting itself is a pain. I think the board is great and runs fine, but if people want a system, they should create a system, as opposed to simply trying to legitimize the blah-blah-Buffista decisions that a handful are making.

The endless discussion in and of itself limits democracy, because the inherent confusion and debate is driving people away from the process. The only way a true democratic system can work is if it is simple, and if it is set up so as to give all participants an equal amount of power.

So when someone proposes something and is seconded, having to then get through a round of debate over the damn proposal is not remotely democratic. Discussion is what you do before a proposal is made. But once someone decides they want to make a formal proposal, all that's left is to have an appropriate amount of people second that proposal as is, then you vote.

Ok, and I'm spent. Sorry if I got all deranged here. Just trying to help. I'll go back to lurking until I can't stands it no more.

Oh yeah? I am 110% in favor.

scrappy, don't make me come over there and prove my 100% is bigger than your 110%.

What's the worse case scenario if we don't have everything polished and approved and lined up and approved by everyone before the vote? We have to do a referendum on a couple of minor points? The horror.

Really, a group of officers should be elected to a set time period.

There are not words to express how much I dislike this solution.

"this [arms stretched wide apart] much" and "more than you can possibly imagine" are the ones that come instantly to my mind.

It seems to me that we're insisting on the 100% perfect solution every time, and that the pursuit of perfection is getting in the way of closing discussion and getting things done.

Yes. This.

Let's not keep breeding ducks to nibble us to death here.

We had ONE issue to decide, and that's "how many are the minimum number of voters?"

But I did not withdraw a proposal ita made. I withdrew my suggested amendment. Look three points:

1) I made a proposal to be helpful It was not found helpful. I withdrew it.

2) But given how this whole process has gone I won't accept rudeness. I really want an apology from Anthama for the "dicking" comment.

3) And I'm withdrawing because I am convinced it was a bad idea ,not because it violates process. First of all, seconding in our system (which has not been passed in any case) does not rule out amendments. Formal presentation does that (an announcement in of the vote) does that. And I will point out that an improvement in wording was in fact made after it was proposed and seconded. So what I wanted to do was perfectly within the process of how we are doing it. And we are violating our own process by having the vote start at midnight tonight. I see the need, and I'm not pushing it. but please don't use "violation of process" arguments in this particular discussion.