The thing is, we're people with different personalities. And I'll admit there are some core Buffistas who I do not especially like, whose posts act like sandpaper on my nerves at times. I'm sure some people would say the same of me -- you can't have opinions and have everyone love you all the time. We're respectful about our differences, but they are there.

I'm not sure disliking someone's posting voice (which is basically what we're talking about re: Schmoker, leaving the concerns that it's another mieske alias aside) is reason enough to get all kerfuffled and start wishing for MARCIE or an island. Just scroll on by.

I don't want that to happen at all.

[ed. -- xpost! that was re. this becoming a private posting board.]

(actually, there have even been chances where I've felt some condescension towards me from people with lower userIDs and I've shut up because of that, but maybe that's my own issue)

Paul, -- I've been trying to articulate, right now, how upset that makes me, and I've been typing things like "conversational rights" and "contracts" but they're all very, very stupid, and so I'm deleting them. Please imagine paragraphs of brilliantly-reasoned text for me.

I'll just say that no one should feel, or be made to feel, that they are less worthy, or have less status, intrinsically because they joined later. That's absolutely insane. If you think you were unfairly condescended to, that's not good.

I'm not talking about Schmoker here, and haven't been for a while. Quite frankly, until someone proves to me that Schmoker has done something bannable, I'm not.

I'm talking about newbies, and like vw said, not even about an influx. Every addition to a community requires a learning period for all concerned. I don't want an island. I want cross pollination. I don't want the community to risk dying off from slow attrition, or to resort to something actually elitist like having new members vouched for by the old.

I remember when I wasn't a Buffista. I remember when I was convinced that no one gave a fuck what I posted, and wondered why I even bothered. I remember the turning point, and I remember being slightly resentful of what it seemed to take too.

And that didn't just happen as a Buffista -- I've joined a number of online communities.

This joining thing? Hardly unique. These joining pains? Hardly unique. What is pretty Buffista about it is the level of discussion about them, in my experience. Which I think is more a good thing than a bad.

But I think we're neither a hostile group of cliquish low ID posters, nor an idyllic and all-embracing kumbayah-sharing posters that never argue or piss each other off.

Arguing with someone you know is different from arguing with someone you don't. Period. You can't force it not to be. I won't argue with Kat the same way I argue with a friend of 10 years or the same way I argue with someone I met last week. Who'd expect me to? Would you say I'm being unfair to people in this scenario? Would you say I'm playing favourites?

I can't see how.

Through a lot of this discussion I'm wondering what the interpersonal online expectations are, and why they seem to be so different from meatspace expectations.

Absolutely not. If we make this a private island, it'll die. I'd rather be flooded with trolls than become some kind of private members club, I really would.

I'll just say that no one should feel, or be made to feel, that they are less worthy, or have less status, intrinsically because they joined later. That's absolutely insane. If you think you were unfairly condescended to, that's not good.

What Lizard (perfectly eloquently) said. And she's old-school, so we should listen...

I remember when I wasn't a Buffista. I remember when I was convinced that no one gave a fuck what I posted, and wondered why I even bothered. I remember the turning point, and I remember being slightly resentful of what it seemed to take too.

What ita said, too.

But there was a time when I spoke up because I was offended (even used the word offended in my post), and I was shot down. I was not apologized to. I was told how wrong I was.

Well, that's bad, and yes-- no Buffista is necessarily always good at those (as I saw them) "rules" of posting and apologizing, intrinsically just because they're a Buffista. I've had scrapes with other "long-time" Buffistas in the past because their posting styles were unavoidably rubbing me the wrong way-- & worse, just yesterday or the day before I myself (shock horror!) went over the line in a certain thread and was gently stomped by ita.

And so I'm sorry no one apologized to you. They should have. Those are things we all have to work towards. I think. It is my belief.

I'm talking about newbies, and like vw said, not even about an influx. Every addition to a community requires a learning period for all concerned. I don't want an island. I want cross pollination. I don't want the community to risk dying off from slow attrition, or to resort to something actually elitist like having new members vouched for by the old.

Wrod.

And she's old-school, so we should listen...

t shakes fist threateningly

I'm with Ita on this, and I'd just like to note again that the level of discussion on the subject itself is encouraging.

Now if only we can convince bellicose sorts that they'd be happier on AICN...

I'll just say that no one should feel, or be made to feel, that they are less worthy, or have less status, intrinsically because they joined later.

Word. Totally.

I'm in an odd place WRT "oldtimer/newbie" b/c I've technically been around for 2 years, but really I've been in and out since we moved to WXing and only got here for more than a few posts about a month ago. So in a way, I identify with both camps, if there are camps. FWIW, yes there are growing pains and joining pains and all kinds of pains... but if you try, if you listen and are honest and think and do all the things you always do when meeting new people, you're fine.

Arguing with someone you know is different from arguing with someone you don't. Period.

I'm wondering what the interpersonal online expectations are, and why they seem to be so different from meatspace expectations.

Yes. This. It may be my newness to on-line areas, but I'm not quite sure what we're aiming at here.

no one should feel, or be made to feel, that they are less worthy, or have less status, intrinsically because they joined later. That's absolutely insane. If you think you were unfairly condescended to, that's not good.

This also. I'm very glad to say that while I've experienced the 'do they even care what I say?' thing, I can quite happily put that down to a) normal newbies feelings and b) normal mild paranoia.

I also want to say that I'm very glad that Buffistas isn't a private island, and doesn't even have an attempt at it (in the way that, for example, LiveJournal does). I wouldn't be here if it did. (Of course, that might be a reason you want it to be....)

Edit: rather xposty.