I don't want to make a long post about community standards or the way people interact on the net, because I'm at work and I'm supposed to be... uh, working, but I'll just say that I've felt uncomfortable reading what looks like a witchhunt for the last hours. There's more than one person in the world who thinks that "Firefly"'s ratings were bad, or that "Buffy"'s ratings aren't all that, or that the unwashed masses are stupid; actually, there's even the chance that there's more than one person in Cleveland who holds those opinions (and incidentally, how stupid would someone had to be if he was trying to sneak into a posting board where he's been banned, and then confesses that he's from the *exact* same city?). Pointing fingers at someone who makes you uncomfortable and accuse him automatically of being an impersonator does nothing to help solve things.

I understand that this is an established community, and I've tried to behave in a adequately circumspect way (actually, there have even been chances where I've felt some condescension towards me from people with lower userIDs and I've shut up because of that, but maybe that's my own issue), but I am thinking that if the chance of talking to people *vastly* different than you makes the community that uncomfortable, then maybe you should have made the website private to begin with.

I think those are good points, Paul. I'm also one of the ones who wanted to stay on the island.

I've been there, done that, in watching the collapse of a community, and the Buffistas were very much an oasis. Not so much, anymore. I miss WXing, all the time. This has been an interesting ride.

I don't know if it's worth anything, but I'm glad you're around. You're good people, I respect what you wrote.

(and incidentally, how stupid would someone had to be if he was trying to sneak into a posting board where he's been banned, and then confesses that he's from the *exact* same city?).

And ISP (though it's a very large ISP), FTR.

It's a large city. We've more than one person from there. At some point, however, the similarities become hard to ignore. Word choice, choice in online games, things like that. Yeah, it could all be coincidental. Occam would suggest, however, that it's not, but that isn't something easily proved.

Why mention the same city? Like I said, it's a large city. And why does anyone leave anything that could be considered a clue after a potential fresh start? Well, if we don't pick up on it, then who's left looking foolish at the end of the day?

Allyson was one of the people who warned us about what could happen if we lost the layer of abstraction that WX provided. It was hotly debated, well, as heatedly as anything is debated around here. (Or was, that is, seeing as the temp of debate has increased in recent times.)

To be honest, I am uncomfortable with the level of traffic and the massive and sudden influx of new people. It's only natural. Hell, I'm still uncomfortable with the physical level of growth in the city in which I live. We had sort of a nice, comfortable level of growth for the first three months before the shit hit the fan, and I wish to hell it had stayed that way, but it didn't, and I don't know that there is a solution.

Um, not feeling qualified to comment on the community standards debate, but I have a FAQ (regular Buffista FAQ) entry-addition-thingy. Under 'ita', should we make it known that 2003 has been declared ita appreciation year (BBaBB)? It says, "and we all want her and want to be her", which we could then follow with something like, "So much so, in fact, that we've declared 2003 ita appreciation year, though some of us started earlier and we will doubtless continue for many future years." Only funnier.

I think that if most folks are scared of new people this should become a private board.

I usually stay out of these discussions, but after reading 76 more posts on the issue, I thought I’d add another thought.

I’m fairly new to internet fandom. I’ve done message boards before…was even a community leader of a board for a couple of years. All in all, though, I find that you’ll get the same range of behavior no matter what the topic of the board.

I haven’t been a Buffista for nearly as long as many people. I found you all in May of last year. I lurked for several weeks before I finally posted. As a matter of fact, I watched the end planning of the F2F and then heard all of the stories after everyone got home. It was the “I could have been there so easily” thought that finally got me to post. I lurked for a couple of years on the Bronze. I never felt comfortable enough with that community to de-lurk. The Buffistas, though, have been able to integrate many fabulous newbies over the last several months…hell, even I was fairly readily accepted. I’m getting to my point, I promise...

There are some definite core Buffistas and some definite core Buffista thoughts, though. There are discussions that I stay completely out of for that reason. I don’t mind…these are my issues. But there was a time when I spoke up because I was offended (even used the word offended in my post), and I was shot down. I was not apologized to. I was told how wrong I was. And, I don’t bring this up to discuss the issue again…I’m over it. I hope everyone is over it and that it's another forgotten topic. I just bring it up as an example. And, I’ve seen it happen a couple other times too…not that I could name them off the top of my head, and I don’t have time to Nilly them, because I’m at work.

I haven’t been involved in these discussions with Schmoker, because I don’t need anything to raise my blood pressure right now. I’m certainly not taking his side. But, I think if the community in general thinks that these kind of instances happen only because of the influx of newbies, we’re greatly mistaken. Granted, it's easier to get over them when you're friends, or long time community members, *making up* from a fight (and that's an important distinction), but I thought I should make the point anyway.

The thing is, we're people with different personalities. And I'll admit there are some core Buffistas who I do not especially like, whose posts act like sandpaper on my nerves at times. I'm sure some people would say the same of me -- you can't have opinions and have everyone love you all the time. We're respectful about our differences, but they are there.

I'm not sure disliking someone's posting voice (which is basically what we're talking about re: Schmoker, leaving the concerns that it's another mieske alias aside) is reason enough to get all kerfuffled and start wishing for MARCIE or an island. Just scroll on by.

I don't want that to happen at all.

[ed. -- xpost! that was re. this becoming a private posting board.]

(actually, there have even been chances where I've felt some condescension towards me from people with lower userIDs and I've shut up because of that, but maybe that's my own issue)

Paul, -- I've been trying to articulate, right now, how upset that makes me, and I've been typing things like "conversational rights" and "contracts" but they're all very, very stupid, and so I'm deleting them. Please imagine paragraphs of brilliantly-reasoned text for me.

I'll just say that no one should feel, or be made to feel, that they are less worthy, or have less status, intrinsically because they joined later. That's absolutely insane. If you think you were unfairly condescended to, that's not good.

I'm not talking about Schmoker here, and haven't been for a while. Quite frankly, until someone proves to me that Schmoker has done something bannable, I'm not.

I'm talking about newbies, and like vw said, not even about an influx. Every addition to a community requires a learning period for all concerned. I don't want an island. I want cross pollination. I don't want the community to risk dying off from slow attrition, or to resort to something actually elitist like having new members vouched for by the old.

I remember when I wasn't a Buffista. I remember when I was convinced that no one gave a fuck what I posted, and wondered why I even bothered. I remember the turning point, and I remember being slightly resentful of what it seemed to take too.

And that didn't just happen as a Buffista -- I've joined a number of online communities.

This joining thing? Hardly unique. These joining pains? Hardly unique. What is pretty Buffista about it is the level of discussion about them, in my experience. Which I think is more a good thing than a bad.

But I think we're neither a hostile group of cliquish low ID posters, nor an idyllic and all-embracing kumbayah-sharing posters that never argue or piss each other off.

Arguing with someone you know is different from arguing with someone you don't. Period. You can't force it not to be. I won't argue with Kat the same way I argue with a friend of 10 years or the same way I argue with someone I met last week. Who'd expect me to? Would you say I'm being unfair to people in this scenario? Would you say I'm playing favourites?

I can't see how.

Through a lot of this discussion I'm wondering what the interpersonal online expectations are, and why they seem to be so different from meatspace expectations.