The thing about the Assholes thread is, the internet is full of assholes. Heck, the world is full of assholes. The thing I enjoy about the Buffistas is they manage to be both not assholes, and not boring, which is a rarer combination than you'd think.

Do we have that big a problem with political discussions?

I don't think we do right now. A lot of that, of course, is that they only come up sporadically (which of course is an argument against a separate thread). It's also because, IMO, this place encourages standards of discourse.

I actually worry that if we have a thread dedicated to politics, it'll get harder to uphold those standards. Because politics does engage people's emotions, and it's relatively easy to cause bad feeling, and over the course of a single argument that bad feeling can escalate as people act just a bit more out of a sense of grievance.

I don't think that's become a problem here, at least in part because the discussions stop. Eventually the nattery natterness takes over, the politics takes a back seat again and any bad feeling gets a chance to subside. I fear that if we had a dedicated politics thread, that chance to let matters cool off could be compromised, at least some of the time.

I think we have different spicy tolerances, Plei. My spicy is someone else's flame war. This is because I lack tact and patience, so it's all on me.

I actually worry that if we have a thread dedicated to politics, it'll get harder to uphold those standards.

I'm with Billytea. Any emotions raised in the politics thread is going to bleed over into other threads as well. We just kicked someone out for not complying with our community standards. Let's not make a forum where it's easy to fail to meet those (fairly high) standards.

What this boils down to, I think, is what kind of board do we want to evolve into? Are we a Jossverse discussion board with other-topic threads, or are we a general discussion board with Jossverse threads? Are we a media/entertainment discussion board with extra natter? When Buffy and Angel end, what will the objection to a Politics thread be then?

I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I'd like to think of us as (at least primarily) a Buffy/Angel/Firefly board, and I'm against rampant thread proliferation on general principle. On the other...the shows won't be around forever, and when that happens, I think we probably will become a general discussion board w/ Jossverse accessories, in which case Cooking & Politics & What Are You Wearing Today threads make a lot of sense. On the other other hand, I'm incredibly resistant to major changes to the structure of my world, so my instinct is to keep specific topic threads to a minimum until all Joss' shows are off the air. On the other other other hand, I'd probably lurk happily in a Politics thread, so...I'm conflicted.

What this boils down to, I think, is what kind of board do we want to evolve into? Are we a Jossverse discussion board with other-topic threads, or are we a general discussion board with Jossverse threads? Are we a media/entertainment discussion board with extra natter? When Buffy and Angel end, what will the objection to a Politics thread be then?

Again, this is still a newbie's perspective, which may be refreshing, or may just be way off base. Stumbling across this place and getting hooked on it as I have, it seems to me that you have not just a message board for talking about that which is Joss, but a community. You have nicknames for each other. You have inside jokes which you warn and educate people about in your FAQ. You have, what appears to be, a tight-nit collection of people that support each other on a wide number of fronts, and this is a comfortable, happy place where you can bring in your personalities without fear of feelings getting bruised.

I describe this because, a community of people that care about each other can talk about anything. You're not strangers.

It feels like you're wrestling with the conflicting pros and cons of growing and changing purposes and defining structure. In a small community, there are fewer strangers, and everyone knows everyone else. Growing, however, brings fresh faces and fresh ideas. Adding a purpose and applying structure means losing some of the flexibility that allows natter to proliferate. It also means that you keep conversations focused, and when you have problems, you have methods and procedures well established for dealing with them.

I'm writing this as an outsider. I think I see what makes this place so special to so many of you. t /Long Winded Natter

Summary: A politics thread isn't necessary for a community such as what you have here. It would, however, be a handy utility if the purpose of this place was to change to be more of "just a message board".

When Buffy and Angel end, what will the objection to a Politics thread be then?

I don't think the situation will change, really; the objections as I understand them are:

1. There isn't a great deal of call for one; the majority of posters don't seem to want it.
2. There's a concern that it will damage the community standards of the place.
3. There's a concern about thread-creep, about the place becoming too fragmented.

I don't think there's any particular objection to it which is based on the board being devoted to ME shows in particular, or entertainment in general. Which is not to say that the above objections may themselves weaken over time, of course.

OK; then I hope that some of the famous Buffista tolerance will continue to include tolerance for the occasional poltical discussion. Because it has in the past, and it would be a shame for that to change. I like occasionally being able to discuss politics in a forum where it never devolves into a flame war. (Believe me, Caroma's and my irriation with one another does not constitute a flame war, though obviously in the future we should simply avoid political conversation with one another.)

because this is heading thread-for-everythingwards

Ayup. And then the only thing we’ll have to talk about in Natter is what we ate for breakfast today.

I'm against thread proliferation, not just ideologically, but experientially. I have no problem with the fact that I can't and won't *ever* keep up with Natter. Because most of it is just chit chat. But occasionally wonderful conversations crop up. If I have to go seek them out in 9 different threads, I'll never see them. Subscribing to 20 threads just seems like a royal a pain in the ass to me. I already subscribe to threads that I don't actually read very often. I don't need more.

Hmmm. "The guy you support eats dead baby harp seals for breakfast! But it's no reflection on YOU! Honest"

Caroma, can you *honestly* say this is an accurate characterization of Susan’s political stance? Or Gar's? I can’t. So exactly *who* is it that you are arguing with here?

I’m sorry I’m being bratty. All I really mean is, I think that there is a tendency to mischaracterize the tone of other people’s politics, and that it leads to hurt feelings on all sides.

OTOH, I really, really want to talk politics, and it's hard to find political discussion anywhere else online that isn't completely overrun by trolls, so it's kinda frustrating to feel like it's a forbidden topic.

I don’t think that politics are a forbidden topic in Natter. I admit I am one of the people who runs away as soon as people start getting aggro over politics, but I don’t think that politics should be avoided in Natter. I just think that nastiness should be avoided when talking politics.

I do believe it's possible to discuss politics politely, as I have on many occasions and will likely continue to do in the future.

I agree with Jen. I've seen it done. I've done it myself. As a teacher, I have to. If a student comes to my office & in the course of discussing a paper notes that he worked on the Bush campaign, it absolutely CANNOT color my comments. I'm still there to help him make the paper the best it can be, and that doesn't mean it needs to be liberal in its ideology.

Seriously, I think the mix of hothouse flowers and spewing volcanoes temper each other, nicely.

Yes, and this is why I think that moving touchy subjects to their own thread is a very bad idea. We've discussed politics and religion here, and when things get toasty, someone usually Doblerizes the disputants, or things die down on their own. If the volatile types know that the sensitive types are reading, then they'll be more likely to think before posting.

Also, I generally find politics boring, so I have a tendency to skim posts that are highly political in content.

The argument that I think is more cogent is that we came together over a TV show, and that discussing movies and books and music is a logical outgrowth of discussing television (and Natter is a logical outgrowth of talking with people everyday), whereas politics or cooking-specific threads don't have that connection.

Very much agreed. This is the only place I know of in cyber or meat space where I can have intelligent discussions about the arts without feeling like I'm dealing with the Highly Exclusive Club of Pretentious People Who Wouldn't Know a Joke If It Bit Them on the Ass and Don't Know How to Appreciate Movies Where Things Get Blowed Up Real Good.