I don't know how useful this is, but I remember not too long ago there was an intense discussion of rape in the Buffy thread. Some folks avoided the thread, and were angered or hurt by the discussion, IIRC.

The discussion went on, got more intense and such over days, and then waned, as discussions tend to do. I don't know as there were lasting effects. People hotly disagreed with each other, but I remember seeing people in Natter directing others towards a "good" discussion/debate.

When I saw the post from our banned friend about "Big Brother" I wanted to just sort of remind people (and let newbies know) that debate about sensitive topics does happen, here, and sometimes people get angry, stomp off, avoid a thread, or just feel a little hurt.

It isn't utopia, and people says stuff what pisses other people off. People clash, argue, and say what's on their minds. Sometimes misunderstandings happen and it gets heated and people pop a cork and then take a break, but they usually come back, an either iron it out or agree to disagree and move on.

The biggest problem I had with Mieske is that he wouldn't say, for example:

Allyson, you said ten minutes ago that all newbies should compose their posts in notepad and spellcheck them because misspellings make people look like morons and drag the community down, and your last two posts were riddled with bad grammar. When you make demands that other people conform to a standard that you, yourself refuse to live up to, you come across as hypocritical.

He would simply say:

You're all hypocrites, look it up.

The former example would likely cause me to get defensive, but force me to acknowledge the truth of the post, bitter medicine as it is.

The latter just shuts me down with condescending name calling.

The former is sort of a crude example of how Buffistas behave. It doesn't dance around the point, that demanding others live up to a standard to which I am unwilling to live up to is hypocritical, but it's constructed in such a way as to both make the point and to not incite a flame war riot.

That be the Buffista way, as i see it. Think before typing, if you feel maligned then speak up about it, if no maliciousness was intended, then apologize for the misunderstanding and clarify until understanding or a somewhat amicable impasse can be reached.

It's all about intention, and sometimes it takes two days of posting to get to that intention. It took a couple of weeks for everyone to be sure of the intention of Mieske's posts, which was to use Buffistas to make himself feel superior by telling the smart kids that they were stupid.

If Allyson *didn't* compose this post in notepad, she's braver then me.

But I want to say that watching the machinery of exclusion move into action upset me, personally, more than anything he said. That's only my feeling, I don't want anyone to change anything they've done. I just want it said.

I'm not happy that we had to suspend him. As Jon noted, we still haven't actually deactivated averagejoe's account, because I think we sort of feel like it's better to let sleeping dogs lie. However, I think Anne's analogy is dead on. mieskie was a cancer. it's not just the matter that he was driving people out of the thread with his rudeness, but also that if we accept his rudeness, then we are allowing him to become an example for other new posters to emulate.

Just for the record, I was actually leaning towards his side during last night's discussion, and agreed for the most part with what he said. I just think that you don't need to remind people in every post of how stupid they are if they disagree with you.

But I want to say that watching the machinery of exclusion move into action upset me, personally, more than anything he said.

After a dog's life spent online, watching a swift *community* response warmed the cockles of my heart. I'm much more distressed over the fact that the inevitable happened sooner rather than later than I am over the actions that were taken as a result.

See: Allyson's post, especially

It's all about intention, and sometimes it takes two days of posting to get to that intention. It took a couple of weeks for everyone to be sure of the intention of Mieske's posts, which was to use Buffistas to make himself feel superior by telling the smart kids that they were stupid.

I feel no sadness in dealing with bullies in the appropriate manner, because I'd like to keep the sand out of my eyes and other people's hands off my lunch money. It's not exclusion when someone doesn't want to be part of the group, they just want to stand around bitch slapping while the group turns the other cheek time and time again. Obviously, YMMV, but I really, really am uncomfortable with the notion that anyone here feels (if they do) guilty about protecting themselves and the community they value.

I'm not happy that we had to suspend him.

I don't think anyone is. Which is, perhaps, why we're still talking about it.

I went back and read all of the guy's posts. On occasion, he had some good points, and played well with others. On occasion. But he enjoyed the flame-baiting waaaay too much, and it wasn't going to stop, even when politely asked both front-and back-channel.

Truth to tell, his posts remind me a lot of the AICN Talkback threads, and perhaps that was part of the problem here. Behavior that's completely acceptable on other boards isn't here. Over at AICN, none of this would have raised an eyebrow.

Behavior that's completely acceptable on other boards isn't here. Over at AICN, none of this would have raised an eyebrow.

Yup. It's that way on a lot of other boards at WX, too. Which is why I don't hang out in any of those boards, even if the subject matter was interesting to me.

I've never been on the side of the shunners before, only the shunned.

That's an astute post, Connie. I think what you're feeling is a sense of bullying, maybe.

Buffistas as a group tend to feel a deep sense of sympathy and empathy towards the bullied, a lot having been victimized by bullies at some point in their lives.

A shunning is a latent bullying tactic. Kids and adults who didn't "actively" bully in terms of malicious teasing or physical violence would still "shun" the bullied, which is sort of self protection, in a way (to not associate oneself with the bullied in order to avoid being bullied as well).

The result is a feeling of helplessness and lonliness for the bullied.

I saw Mieske as a bully. I saw the namecalling within his posts towards everyone else as a cyber punch in the jaw.

Here, we have a large group of the bullied, who are sensitive to bullying, maybe hyper-sensitive to it, having lived through it, or else been affected by it in some life changing sort of way.

There's a sort of inner switch that gets turned on when we see something resembling bullying.

Maybe it's a fine line.

Mieske is either the guy who cornered the small kid in the locker room and terrorized him, or was the small kid getting terrorized. Either way, he ain't healthy, hasn't learned to Play Well With Others, and tolerating him isn't too far off from being the people who turned a blind eye when the small kid in the locker room was terrorized.

Have to speak up and say, "this is unacceptable, you're hurting folks, and I'm not going to allow you to do that."

That's true, Victor. I think the very clear respect and extra care for each other which is the heart of this place will inspire two responses in people--either, "How dare you tell ME what to say? I post online so I can say whatever I like and you can't stop me." or "Wow, a place where there are smart folk who behave like people I would actually want to meet. I love this place." That is part of being what a Buffista is.

Allyson is me, only, you know, more articulate.