Nothing is foolproof, but I'd like to think that if an oldtimer starts disturbing the community that the oldtimer gets talked to. Same with a Stompy Foot.

We did have a foo-furrah back in the day when an old timer said things that other people found intensely offensive. As has been mentioned upthread, the reaction to chiding is the telling part. This oldtimer was ... not officially warned since that was before here ... but people spoke up, like Betsy and Suela did today. And the person made their decision, which was to leave.

I'd like to think that the same procedure would come into play, when someone crosses the line that the community reacts, and then it escalates from there.

Like to think.

I think the difference is respect for the community and the other members. I believe that if I, or anyone else had posted that I was offended and/or annoyed by the all caps profanity explosion in Natter people would have backed down. I'm sure if a newbie had complained people would have been contrite. They may have qualified it with, "we're like this sometimes, but we don't mean to offend."

If a newbie comes in an post something offensive, and is called on it by one or more members, I think our response to them will depend on how they act to any objections. Hopefully they would have to courtesy to apologize or at least modifiy their behaviour. Even if they think they're being harshed on. You can't walk into a room full of strangers saying things that could be considered offensive and expect to be embraced.

I think the difference is you seem to be a lot more mature and experienced moderators - and members - than the ones I'm used to working with. What a relief.

If a newbie comes in an post something offensive, and is called on it by one or more members, I think our response to them will depend on how they act to any objections.

Personally, I think that's the key. Back when we had the "idiots" discussion and several members objected to his liberal use of the term, his response was that he didn't care if he had stepped on anyone's toes. I mean, if you're new to a board and don't care that you're pissing people off left and right, you're making it clear that you're not a newbie looking to become part of a community. You're just getting off on causing trouble and will move onto greener pastures once you've gotten bored poking your stick in this one.

Hm. There is a point in there but I think I lost it when I started mixing my metaphors.

And he's just pulled the "other people talked about cocksucking" argument. Argh.

I think that it can be articulated in terms of respect. What mieskie said was not in any way respectful, as I read it; and I think that when other people talked about, say, CC's breast size, it was in a manner that would not have made CC slack-jawed with personal affront if she were to ever read the posts.

Also? As I know him right now, he's given me no reason to like him. This is not me trying to advocate paths of in-community action; this is me being honest, and on a fellow-poster level. He seems crass, disrespectful, not very witty, and not very self-aware; and for those reasons, I'm much, much less inclined to forgive his comments than I would were they uttered by someone I already know.

(And that's how it works everywhere, too. I mean, take for example art, or academia. I believe I could point to examples of people who when they were young worked hard to establish themselves as talented people and thinkers who should be taken seriously, and then once they were established, could get away with starting to be-- maybe lazy, maybe experimental, but once their names automatically carried some authority they could force their readers to consider things their readers might not have given time of day to before. It's the same thing.)

I dunno. I truly believe you've got to earn your place in a community. That does not mean bowing and scraping, nor does it mean suppressing yr own opinions and mouthing along with others; but it means-- carefully, if needs be, if you're generally & naturally a hasty-tempered person-- holding fast to the community's stated mores and path of etiquette, and being rather polite, especially to members of the community more established than you.

Heavily-crude speech about underage girls? A very much borderline issue. (And if you don't perceive it to be a borderline issue, your views are so out of whack with ours that, my gut feeling is, you ought to solely lurk at least a little while longer and save you, and us, heaps of agonizing over the reconciliation of our posts.) For that reason alone, it ought to be skirted by any new user. Heavily-crude speech at fucking all? Still tread lightly. Is my feeling. You're at a dinner table with people you don't really know yet-- watch the chick next to you for cues re. which fork to pick up when.

I absolutely understand the uncomfortableness with the "cool kids" rule-- I'm strongly uncomfortable with simply saying "do what HE says because HE'S been here longer or otherwise ita will kick your ass". But I think-- again-- that it can be articulated in terms of respect, and the contract entered into when you join a new community. Please have respect for our there-when-you-got-there mores. If you offend them without having intended to, we will tell you, politely, as we do and did; then, your path is (I feel) to absolutely take a polite, apologetic tone. If you feel you were warned too hastily, or within a double standard, you absolutely may argue with us; but your basic tone *must* be a polite one. This is our sandbox. You are the newbie. Argue; but you must be brilliant to make us change our minds about something we've already had sixty thousand posts in the Bureaucracy thread about; but, then again, it is possible. Be polite and brilliant. Certainly. Surprise us.

I really have a very hard time believing that anyone will be banned or stomped without a discussion like this in this thread, simply because we are Buffistas, and we don't shut up, and we don't take these matters lightly. But the community is absolutely split along the lines, I do agree, we better have an odd number of admins, 'cause that vote ought to be the absolute and finalmost one.

And FayJay? Your posts are consistently funny, charming, and lovely as heck. And if you stopped posting, or forced a change in your posting style out of guilt, I'd be genuinely bereaved. So don't dare.

Censorship claims, btw, have no merit in a private forum.

Wrod, suela.

Also, we now have Rebecca Lizard's younger sister (I don't know how much younger) posting on the board. Is there anything we need to worry about that, and if so, how do we handle it?

Ten. Although I'm not allowed to tell you that-- she said she didn't want people going oh, a TEN-year-old, can't possibly hold a conversation with her and scooting away from her.

She was the one who asked to join the Buffistas. I have my sneaking suspicions that it will not last very long; or at least that she will only post in Natter and occasionally the show threads. I'm not letting her look at the Bitch or fic threads. I'm that controlling. Plus the whole not-actually-having-come-out-yet-to-my-siblings thing. (They appear, btw, to have no clue. I'm not sure on bloody earth how.)

But, anyway-- she was the one who asked to join. I told her that if she saw any bad words (or anything that might offend her delicate prepubescent sensibilities) or confuse her, it was on her head, she wasn't allowed to get upset about it. She rolled her eyes at me and said duh.

In other words-- this is my sister, I get to set the rules for this instance! Whee-- I say if you were considering maybe changing yourself, because of an ickle lizard, I say don't dare. I seriously doubt she'll run into any snarl, she's very self-composed (not to mention often short of attention span) and would scroll past any porny banter to get on to something she understood-- but if other people are feeling uncomfortable just at her presence, I will pull her right out. I would have left if people really felt strongly about a then-fifteen-year-old reading their posts; I'll make her leave if people feel strongly about a ten-year-old occasionally halfways in the room.

(She's really a very lovely, clever, self-possessed child. I also told her she wasn't allowed to say "thanx" or

(almost made it! I was saying)

(She's really a very lovely, clever, self-possessed child. I also told her she wasn't allowed to say "thanx" or anything close to the AIM-speak she uses occasionally with her friends. She said "duh" again-- I'm so proud!)

I believe that if I, or anyone else had posted that I was offended and/or annoyed by the all caps profanity explosion in Natter people would have backed down.

Which is exactly what happened the next day. I and some others were goading Rio & Co. to start up again. Betsy asked that we all stop. We did. No fuss, no muss.

I'm a newbie. Lurked for awhile and registered a few months ago. So, if you're interested in a newbie's perspective - this guy is just trouble. There's such a huge difference between the typically seen off-color snark and this guy's crassness. Never mind the fact that he's also been insulting to other posters directly. In all of the threads I read, I've never seen a poster (long-time one or not) refuse to drop a subject or not apologize if someone said that they were offended by a comment. As a matter of fact, I've seen people almost bend over backwards to make sure that they weren't contributing to someone's uncomfortableness. This guy seems to like getting a negative reaction...thrives on it even. He pretends to be backing down, while all the while just reiterating what was offensive to begin with. He says "Oh. okay...I won't talk about...insert inappropriate topic here...anymore. I won't say how....blah, blah, blah....." It's like he's mocking everyone on purpose. I was surprised that he didn't get more of a negative reaction from you guys when he first began posting. I was waiting for someone to tell him off. It's not even necessarily the content of what he says so much as the presentation and tone of it. You guys have more class...much more. This guy comes off as a demented pervert getting off on making people squirm.

I really don't think you should worry whether or not he thinks it's fair for you to reprimand him. You're not doing it arbitrarily. You have you're reasons...he doesn't have to like them. The arguments that he is using come across as foolish. The fact that he's managed to offend people on such a liberal (when it comes to adult content/comments) board, should give him more pause, not less. I personally, would be mortified if I felt I offended everyone in a thread.

Just my two cents as a relative newbie. You can completely ignore them if you'd like, but I think he insults the whole board by trying to make it into his own personal playground where no one else's feelings or sensibilities matter. This board is way better than that. If he can't play by the rules...I say boot him.

Wise words, Denise. Thanks.

He pretends to be backing down, while all the while just reiterating what was offensive to begin with.

That's exactly what I find so obnoxious--he's really passive-aggressive about the whole thing.

Thanks, Denise, for phrasing that so well.