There are also people who've come around recently who are clearly respected members of the community. It's not even about longevity. The fact is, we do know it when we see it, and we are wary about stomping with our feet on people, and we give people the benefit of the doubt, and then we have a procedure. If the stompy feet can't agree to give someone a warning, well, we'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

I've noticed that things have calmed down there since the focus has turned back to the show, and away from the Natter. I hope staying on topic helps. (Catching up in the thread it has read like a strange, through-the-looking-glass Natter where everyone was nattering to avoid the trollage.)

BTW, I think the actions taken were appropriate and I was glad to see the warning.

we do know it when we see it

This is our policy in a nutshell, isn't it? "We know it when we see it, and we know who 'we' are"?

Yip.

In my experience, this can be troublesome. People change over time. What if a longstanding member becomes increasingly offensive over time? Other long-termers may not become offended because they are gradually exposed to a persona overtime. But if a newbie did the same thing, people might find it offensive.

Not trying to be problematic throwing this out there.. but have run into just this situation on another forum and I don't know what the solution is. We made the mistake of giving someone leeway for too long, and ended up really dividing the board by trying to achieve both transparency in moderating, and respect for longtermers.

Nothing is foolproof, but I'd like to think that if an oldtimer starts disturbing the community that the oldtimer gets talked to. Same with a Stompy Foot.

We did have a foo-furrah back in the day when an old timer said things that other people found intensely offensive. As has been mentioned upthread, the reaction to chiding is the telling part. This oldtimer was ... not officially warned since that was before here ... but people spoke up, like Betsy and Suela did today. And the person made their decision, which was to leave.

I'd like to think that the same procedure would come into play, when someone crosses the line that the community reacts, and then it escalates from there.

Like to think.

I think the difference is respect for the community and the other members. I believe that if I, or anyone else had posted that I was offended and/or annoyed by the all caps profanity explosion in Natter people would have backed down. I'm sure if a newbie had complained people would have been contrite. They may have qualified it with, "we're like this sometimes, but we don't mean to offend."

If a newbie comes in an post something offensive, and is called on it by one or more members, I think our response to them will depend on how they act to any objections. Hopefully they would have to courtesy to apologize or at least modifiy their behaviour. Even if they think they're being harshed on. You can't walk into a room full of strangers saying things that could be considered offensive and expect to be embraced.

I think the difference is you seem to be a lot more mature and experienced moderators - and members - than the ones I'm used to working with. What a relief.

If a newbie comes in an post something offensive, and is called on it by one or more members, I think our response to them will depend on how they act to any objections.

Personally, I think that's the key. Back when we had the "idiots" discussion and several members objected to his liberal use of the term, his response was that he didn't care if he had stepped on anyone's toes. I mean, if you're new to a board and don't care that you're pissing people off left and right, you're making it clear that you're not a newbie looking to become part of a community. You're just getting off on causing trouble and will move onto greener pastures once you've gotten bored poking your stick in this one.

Hm. There is a point in there but I think I lost it when I started mixing my metaphors.

And he's just pulled the "other people talked about cocksucking" argument. Argh.

I think that it can be articulated in terms of respect. What mieskie said was not in any way respectful, as I read it; and I think that when other people talked about, say, CC's breast size, it was in a manner that would not have made CC slack-jawed with personal affront if she were to ever read the posts.

Also? As I know him right now, he's given me no reason to like him. This is not me trying to advocate paths of in-community action; this is me being honest, and on a fellow-poster level. He seems crass, disrespectful, not very witty, and not very self-aware; and for those reasons, I'm much, much less inclined to forgive his comments than I would were they uttered by someone I already know.

(And that's how it works everywhere, too. I mean, take for example art, or academia. I believe I could point to examples of people who when they were young worked hard to establish themselves as talented people and thinkers who should be taken seriously, and then once they were established, could get away with starting to be-- maybe lazy, maybe experimental, but once their names automatically carried some authority they could force their readers to consider things their readers might not have given time of day to before. It's the same thing.)

I dunno. I truly believe you've got to earn your place in a community. That does not mean bowing and scraping, nor does it mean suppressing yr own opinions and mouthing along with others; but it means-- carefully, if needs be, if you're generally & naturally a hasty-tempered person-- holding fast to the community's stated mores and path of etiquette, and being rather polite, especially to members of the community more established than you.

Heavily-crude speech about underage girls? A very much borderline issue. (And if you don't perceive it to be a borderline issue, your views are so out of whack with ours that, my gut feeling is, you ought to solely lurk at least a little while longer and save you, and us, heaps of agonizing over the reconciliation of our posts.) For that reason alone, it ought to be skirted by any new user. Heavily-crude speech at fucking all? Still tread lightly. Is my feeling. You're at a dinner table with people you don't really know yet-- watch the chick next to you for cues re. which fork to pick up when.

I absolutely understand the uncomfortableness with the "cool kids" rule-- I'm strongly uncomfortable with simply saying "do what HE says because HE'S been here longer or otherwise ita will kick your ass". But I think-- again-- that it can be articulated in terms of respect, and the contract entered into when you join a new community. Please have respect for our there-when-you-got-there mores. If you offend them without having intended to, we will tell you, politely, as we do and did; then, your path is (I feel) to absolutely take a polite, apologetic tone. If you feel you were warned too hastily, or within a double standard, you absolutely may argue with us; but your basic tone *must* be a polite one. This is our sandbox. You are the newbie. Argue; but you must be brilliant to make us change our minds about something we've already had sixty thousand posts in the Bureaucracy thread about; but, then again, it is possible. Be polite and brilliant. Certainly. Surprise us.

I really have a very hard time believing that anyone will be banned or stomped without a discussion like this in this thread, simply because we are Buffistas, and we don't shut up, and we don't take these matters lightly. But the community is absolutely split along the lines, I do agree, we better have an odd number of admins, 'cause that vote ought to be the absolute and finalmost one.

And FayJay? Your posts are consistently funny, charming, and lovely as heck. And if you stopped posting, or forced a change in your posting style out of guilt, I'd be genuinely bereaved. So don't dare.

Censorship claims, btw, have no merit in a private forum.

Wrod, suela.

Also, we now have Rebecca Lizard's younger sister (I don't know how much younger) posting on the board. Is there anything we need to worry about that, and if so, how do we handle it?

Ten. Although I'm not allowed to tell you that-- she said she didn't want people going oh, a TEN-year-old, can't possibly hold a conversation with her and scooting away from her.

She was the one who asked to join the Buffistas. I have my sneaking suspicions that it will not last very long; or at least that she will only post in Natter and occasionally the show threads. I'm not letting her look at the Bitch or fic threads. I'm that controlling. Plus the whole not-actually-having-come-out-yet-to-my-siblings thing. (They appear, btw, to have no clue. I'm not sure on bloody earth how.)

But, anyway-- she was the one who asked to join. I told her that if she saw any bad words (or anything that might offend her delicate prepubescent sensibilities) or confuse her, it was on her head, she wasn't allowed to get upset about it. She rolled her eyes at me and said duh.

In other words-- this is my sister, I get to set the rules for this instance! Whee-- I say if you were considering maybe changing yourself, because of an ickle lizard, I say don't dare. I seriously doubt she'll run into any snarl, she's very self-composed (not to mention often short of attention span) and would scroll past any porny banter to get on to something she understood-- but if other people are feeling uncomfortable just at her presence, I will pull her right out. I would have left if people really felt strongly about a then-fifteen-year-old reading their posts; I'll make her leave if people feel strongly about a ten-year-old occasionally halfways in the room.

(She's really a very lovely, clever, self-possessed child. I also told her she wasn't allowed to say "thanx" or