I don't think I know what that is, or rather, maybe how it's done. Isn't third person the impersonal voice of an observer? How do you overlap PsOV and/or swap PsOV, Plei?

Scenes. Almost all, okay, hell, all of my longer stuff had POV swaps. Switching POV when I switch a scene. Occasionally having the events of the scenes overlap.

Argh. Hit post before completely explaining. Hrrm. Not good at explaining. Hrrm.

Plei, yes yes yes on the getting as wrapped in third person; so do I. It depends on the writer. But with third person, I sometimes realise that I'm looking at those characters with an odd sort of split, and I have to be careful not to be too arrogant in how I handle them. In first person, when I have the courage to put them on and let their experiences get at me, I'm essentially along for the ride.

That's why Amanda Lisle is such a trippy character to write. I have damned near nothing in common with her except some geography when young and her ability to detach from the world when needed, but putting her on opens things out in me, as a writer. That simply wouldn't have happened in third person POV.

The first-person Mary-Sue is something I've never met.

Here.

I'm a little obsessed with POV. The not-quite-for-pornanthology story that I have almost finished (thanks, Deb!) switches between two explicitly limited 3pPOVs, merely because I don't have what it takes to switch between first persons and make it vaguely intelligible. But I still want each section to feel like the person, smell like the person, and be tainted by the personality.

Well, I'm working on it, anyway.

is the author putting themself into the story without the courage to tell it.

And this, more often than not, is why I dislike first person. And boy, this sounds snippy and arrogant in my own head, but it's never good enough for me, never good enough for me to get sucked it.

Isn't third person the impersonal voice of an observer? How do you overlap PsOV and/or swap PsOV, Plei?

Scenes. Almost all, okay, hell, all of my longer stuff had POV swaps. Switching POV when I switch a scene. Occasionally having the events of the scenes overlap.

Well, scenes. And, which I am particularly guilty of in 'shipper third person fic, switching omniscient points of view. I did it like crazy in this one Wes/Gunn I wrote. Third person can be the impersonal voice of the narrarator, but I find more often than not it's taking the characters and being very personal. By which I mean omniscient.

And you might already know this, I just have no idea what you mean by PsOV.

PsOV (points of view - I was being pedantic in my plural). I still have no clue what anyone means by switching points of view when writing in the 3rd person. I can't wrap my brain around it. Who is speaking and how does that change?

still have no clue what anyone means by switching points of view when writing in the 3rd person. I can't wrap my brain around it

My intent, when I did it, was to shift the style of prose from languid to impatient, depending on character, to shift priorities in describing the scenes, to alter the omniscience of the text.

Hm. Let me try to find an example. From Methods of Persuasion:

Gunn flinches. He isn't sure if it is the tone Wesley used, or the words that hit harder. He shouldn't have come. But Fred - he'd do anything for Fred, and when your title champion doesn't show up for weeks, not to mention that champion's seer doing a disappearing act of her own - well, it is in his best interests to get Wesley back into the office.

So he came, even though he didn't want to. Even though he sides with Angel in the matter, even though he hasn't been in contact with Wesley for a really, really long time. Now he's here - what is he supposed to do again?

"Angel's missing."

There's a small snort from Wesley's general direction, one that makes Gunn form a frown that covers his entire face. He goes into this off-putting grimace that screams, "Fuck off." Wesley loves that look. It means that he gets to Gunn at least a fraction of how much Gunn gets to him. Meets brown eyes, and he can feel his resolve slip away just a little. How many times has he seen that look? Whenever Gunn doesn't understand what Wesley is saying; whenever they play darts and Wesley lets Gunn win. Sometimes Wesley thinks he knows Gunn's face better than his own.

Okay. Third person, but the first para is definitively Gunn and the last para is Wes. It's omniscient, but you're changing how the reader sees what's going on, thereby switching the POV. Not the kind of POV, but the character POV.

Or, what ita said.

I can't wrap my brain around it. Who is speaking and how does that change?

In each scene, one character becomes the eyes and ears of that scene. If something is happening outside of that character's range of sight or hearing? It's not in there. Something happening inside another character's head? Not in there, unless the voice/facial expression switches. The vocabulary becomes more something that character would use, the thoughts of that character filter through, as do the physical sensations.

When I swap out POVs, all of the above changes to suit whoever is in control. An extreme and quick-change example can be seen Here (the big stare-down in Spin the Bottle from two points of view.)

And this, more often than not, is why I dislike first person. And boy, this sounds snippy and arrogant in my own head, but it's never good enough for me, never good enough for me to get sucked it.

It doesn't sound snippy or arrogant; it just sounds like a personal taste, is all, and as such? Perfectly valid. It's one I don't get personally, because I think first person PV when done properly is exquisite, but I'm talking about all writing. One of my favourite set of novels ever is Mary Stewart's Merlin stuff, especially the first two books, Crystal Cave and Hollow Hills. The idea that those could ever have been written in third person? No. No and no and no. Those books are Merlin's autobiography; the magic is something that, by definition, can only properly be described by the person feeling and performing it, and she put Merlin's pain, his grief, his power, his life and death and all the rest of, over her shoulders like a tapestry and she let him ride her. And that's great first person writing.

SA, you know how you feel about first person? I am that way 99% of the time about present tense. I define good present tense writing by one criterion only: if I notice it's present tense, I'm outta there.

And that's great first person writing.

Yeah. It doesn't seem to bother as much in original fiction, though I don't read nearly as much as I once did.

SA, you know how you feel about first person? I am that way 99% of the time about present tense. I define good present tense writing by one criterion only: if I notice it's present tense, I'm outta there.

Mm. I love present tense. But I know exactly how you feel--I was reading something short, not five minutes ago, and just a drabble--no more than a hundred words. I saw "I" and backspaced so quickly you'd have thought my head was spinning.