I was talking pre-LJ.

I just meant I seldom find spoilers of the quality I found when spoiling for Buffy and Angel (and almost all of Buffy was pre-LJ for me). I never had trouble finding them.

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The guy gets around, oneirically speaking.

Johanna had a dream where Browder was a serial killer. So, reasonably enough, she decided that she shouldn't go off alone with him.

Making out with him in public was perfectly fine, though.

he's got more of an outlet to whine about this than Joss & Co did, but I honestly don't remember spoilers being taken so seriously back in the old days.

Seriously? I do. At least once Whedon got all "true fans don't read spoilers" about it, because I remember the reaction. Ah, this is probably it:

WHEDON: It drives me up the frigging wall that I can't keep secrets, that I can't keep things off the Internet. The crewmembers of my own shows are feeding things to the Internet so that people will know what happens before it happens.

IGNFF: Where's the respect for the chain of command?

WHEDON: Apparently, the chain is only as strong as – well, that weak link that's me. It's not respect for the chain of command, it's respect for storytelling. People just don't have it. But you know what? Not everybody reads spoilers, not everybody lives that way. Those are the people that really love the show. I cannot conceive of a person who wants to know what happens. People who turn to the last page of a book – what universe did they come from? I don't understand it.

Diplomatic! But I can understand why it bothers writers, and why they try to out-scheme the spoiler community. I think the stuff about Starbuck was pretty amusing, actually, but that's me.

why complain that your audience loves your show so much that you *have* to find out what's going to happen?

Because that's not the only reason people share/read spoilers. I'm not sure that it's the main reason. Because people go in having already decided that they're going to hate some plot point. Or don't watch at all because they're mad about a spoiler. Or expect to love something, and get furious when it doesn't happen as described. How many times have you seen fans protesting storylines that they haven't even seen yet? Or freaking out over a word choice made by someone who is summarizing a plotline based on something they heard from a friend who was on the set as an extra?

I have no problem with people reading/sharing spoilers; I do it myself, obviously. But it seems disingenuous to claim that spoilers are just a pure expression of love and puppies and rainbows.

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Or don't watch at all because they're mad about a spoiler.

This is the part I don't believe. I know people say they're not going to watch, but I don't buy for a second that it's actually true.

As for people freaking out, well they do that with promos too, don't they? It's different in degree with spoilers, but not in kind. People freak out over a lot of things.

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You're not wrong, Strega. The Veronica Mars fandom is in total meltdown and a lot of it is over spoilers.

Because people go in having already decided that they're going to hate some plot point.

This, particularly, seems to me to happen when there is hardcore 'shipping in the spoiler mix.

That said, for me, spoiling is always either an act of love+puppies+rainbows, or an act of self-preservation. I'm often much happier with a show when I let myself spoil for it, and a lot of times when people are railing against spoilers, I find myself liking the spoilers more, because I'm contrary like that.

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This is the part I don't believe. I know people say they're not going to watch, but I don't buy for a second that it's actually true.

I agree with this though, too.

As for people freaking out, well they do that with promos too, don't they? It's different in degree with spoilers, but not in kind. People freak out over a lot of things.

I do see people flipping more about spoilers than promos. It may be a matter of degrees, but still.

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People who turn to the last page of a book – what universe did they come from?

From whatever universe I come from. I'm much more interested in the writing and how a story unfolds than I am in being surprised. I'm more interested in the journey than the destination.

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I do see people flipping more about spoilers than promos. It may be a matter of degrees, but still.

Given how misleading so many promos are, this doesn't surprise me at all.

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I cannot conceive of a person who wants to know what happens.

I don't get this part. If we don't want to know what happens, we won't watch the show.

Unless Joss meant, who wants to know so badly that they'll skip the journey there, or the context, or the like.

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Unless Joss meant, who wants to know so badly that they'll skip the journey there, or the context, or the like.

That's exactly what he meant when he said "People who turn to the last page of a book". He meant "skip to the end", not "read the last page after reading all the other pages before it."

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I'm with Joss. Of course, we all know that i'm a spoiler nazi. For me, it ruins the story if I know what happened. I remember when I was spoiled for "Becoming", I knew Angel was going to turn human, but I was just waiting for it to happen, and then I enjoyed the show. Maybe it's just the way I process information. Ginger likes the journey, even when she knows the ending. If I know the ending, I just want to get there as quick as possible. If I don't know the ending, I can enjoy the ride.

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