I mean, John didn't really HAVE to hunt everything in sight trying to get the demon...

John didn't know it was a demon.

My take on John is that he started thinking this would a relatively quick thing--he would find evidence of the supernatural thing, go out and kill it somehow, and return to his life.

Except when he found a supernatural thing, it wasn't what killed Mary. And the next thing wasn't what killed Mary, and the next thing wasn't either.

And he figured out how to kill them (sitting up nights in a motel room, rocking Sam in one arm while trying to read something written in Latin held in the other), and he took care of those people at risk because he's a soldier and a father and nobody else would. And he kept looking, and kept looking.

And every damn day, every day for 22 years, he was terrified that the thing that killed Mary was going to turn and come after his boys. So he kept moving, and taught them everything he could to protect them, and realized he couldn't hold a job and hunt and protect his sons, and well. So he stopped working, and started the credit card scams and identity fraud, and maybe he thought that that would protect them some too.

As Plei said, John was in an impossible situation. He didn't know what it was that killed Mary, and he was terrified it was going to come back for Sam (or both boys). So he kept trying to find it, and kept getting sucked deeper and deeper into this shadow world, where nothing is safe and death itself doesn't stop the killing and the pain. And the only thing he could do, to protect his sons, was to keep them alive.

And he did.

A couple of notes on fanon: we have one instance in canon where John "abandoned" the boys. Dean was 9, Sam 4, and that's the only instance we're sure of. I suspect he did leave them alone occasionally, especially as they got older. But we don't know, for sure.

We also, despite the more-than-occasional instance in fic, don't have any evidence that John was an alcoholic. Sam makes two snotty remarks about "Jack, Jim, and Jose" in season 1, to which Dean never replies. We don't know if it's because Dean knows it's true, or if it's an argument he's tired of, or if Sam's fixated on a couple of instances he saw when he was younger that he turned into a trend, the way kids can. We never see John with a glass in his hand.

I find it really hard to believe that an abusive alcoholic asshole could have raised two men who are both loving (if a little stifled), funny, and altruistic to a fault. By all rights Sam and Dean should have turned out as at best, socially retarded and at worst borderline sociopaths. The fact that they didn't has almost everything to do with John.

So, you know? I kind of love John. Which is not to say that I think he was always kind to the boys, and I do want to slap him in "Home" and "Faith" for not (apparently) doing something. But he's desperate at that point--he knows it's a demon by then, and demons are something they don't really know how to deal with, and he also knows something about the special children, so he knows Sam is at risk. He cannot risk drawing its attention to them.

So that's my take on John. I may be just a little defensive about the man.

Sam makes two snotty remarks about "Jack, Jim, and Jose" in season 1, to which Dean never replies. was an alcoholic

In Nightmares (? the ep with the abused kid and Sabrina the teen age witches aunt), Sam said John wasn't so bad, and then something like " a little more tequila, and we could have ended up like [the abused Special]")

he's a soldier

I think this is key. He was a marine, presumably in Vietnam, and the only other life he knew other than that as an adult ended up burning on the ceiling. That has to color how he reacts to things.

I am SO hearting both 'Suela and Plei right now. Not just because I share their character-love, though I do, but mainly because they say what I feel and make it sound very reasoned and clear.

I also heart dialogue and discussion, and I'm really not averse to differing POVs. It's been a while since we had character discussion. Which is to say, if you got something to say, bring it!

Um, please?

We also, despite the more-than-occasional instance in fic, don't have any evidence that John was an alcoholic. Sam makes two snotty remarks about "Jack, Jim, and Jose" in season 1, to which Dean never replies. We don't know if it's because Dean knows it's true, or if it's an argument he's tired of, or if Sam's fixated on a couple of instances he saw when he was younger that he turned into a trend, the way kids can.

Yeah, the grey canon of his journal has him drinking heavily right after Mary's death, but also stopping that soon after he learns he's not actually going nuts, that he saw what he thought he saw.

I suspect John could, and sometimes did, drink to excess, but not often, and not while working.

The other theory I've seen is that it was Sam's cover story about his father with Jess.

By all rights Sam and Dean should have turned out as at best, socially retarded and at worst borderline sociopaths. The fact that they didn't has almost everything to do with John.

Well, Dean kind of is socially backwards, but I'm not sure how much of that can be laid at John's doorstep, and how much of that is just Dean's essential personality + the trauma of Mary's death.

Which is not to say that I think he was always kind to the boys, and I do want to slap him in "Home" and "Faith" for not (apparently) doing something. But he's desperate at that point--he knows it's a demon by then, and demons are something they don't really know how to deal with, and he also knows something about the special children, so he knows Sam is at risk.

Yeah, this. And the same goes for In My Time of Dying, and his request of Dean.

Which was horrible, awful, and he knew it.

But weighing his options, I can see where he felt he had no other choice.

socially backwards

Yeah, but he can hold a conversation. He's not good at emotional connections with people outside his family, but he's got empathy for the victims (particularly children). He understands how people think, and he does (occasionally) reach out.

I have to admit that I honestly want a love story for Dean at some point. I want to see that happen. What would it take?

Yeah, but he can hold a conversation. He's not good at emotional connections with people outside his family, but he's got empathy for the victims (particularly children). He understands how people think, and he does (occasionally) reach out.

He's not good with social chit-chat, or dealing with "normal" adults on "normal" adult terms. It's not that he lacks empathy, just that he's lacking in people/social skills.

I had the epiphany during the Flail Weekend that Dean is not unlike Jeff from Coupling, just not played for laughs.

I have to admit that I honestly want a love story for Dean at some point. I want to see that happen. What would it take?

A third season? I hope?

One can hope.

You know that poll they're running on E Online (I think?)--the one that's being pimped so severely? I feel vaguely guilty, because I voted for FNL over SPN. I just feel like it's more of a crime to not get a second season of FNL than to not get a third season of SPN.

t hands in my "Oh, Dean," badge

Consuela hit the John that I see in my head.

I suspect John could, and sometimes did, drink to excess, but not often, and not while working.

Going through that crap every day, I could see hitting the bottle every once in a while.

socially backwards

I just think that Dean doesn't have a good grasp of what "normal" is. As in, the standard of average which Dean's life is not. Dean is the dutiful son, the mini!John, being the surrogate father (or mother?) to Sam, but Sam was the one who was a bit of an outsider. He barely remembers his mother, and always felt removed from the Family Business. He left for Stanford and spent 4 or so years studying people (and he's a smart one, that Sam) and learning how to play normal. Hell, maybe he even became a little normal, until the YED killed Jess. Dean's got his suave, his sarcasm, his natural charm, but he can't play normal like Sam can.

You know, if they'd just put more normal conversation into movies and on tv, Dean could totally replicate it (to whatever degree it's supported in canon, my Dean totally watched/s a LOT of hotel-room cable). He's been demonstrated to be able to play whatever professional part fairly well, hasn't he? (I've not seen all of S1, I think)