I'm sure they'll come up with some explanation for a 14th Doctor when the time comes. Though given that this is David Tennant's dream job, we may have quite a few years with himin the role.

Remember that story about some woman he brought home being horrified by all the geekish Doctor Who paraphernalia strewn about until she rationalized that the BBC had given him tons of swag once he signed on as the new Doctor? His response was along the lines of "What? Oh yeah... that's the ticket!"

I like Tennant enough to want him to hang around.

Love that he's a geek about it. I can't believe I didn't know that.

Tennant's the one who insisted they list him in the credits as "The Doctor" instead of "Doctor Who". That's hardcore.

t is officially in love

He's also probably the first Doctor to have had a subscription to Doctor Who Magazine *before* becoming the Doctor.

And apparently can (or at least could at one point) list from memory not just every Doctor Who story in order, but every single episode name.

But I thought that it was exactly THAT which bumped Dean out of his all supernatural things must die mindset and made him turn his gun on the hunter guy. (All supernatural things except when they are your brother.)

Yeah. Or possessing your father. So, really, it's that whole family thing.

SPN was pretty good, but it would be better if they didn't spell everything out. I don't need to be bashed over the head with the moral grayitude.

P-C, have you seen SPN S1 yet? Because there was more to this (more anvilly than usual in some respects, admittedly) ep than just showing shades of grey in a previously black and white world. (Which wasn't all that black and white, as we saw in 2x01, because JOHN WINCHESTER, YOU MADE A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL OMG! JOHN! YOU GAVE IT THE COLT!!!) (Sorry. Flailed for a minute there.)

It echoed a lot of S1's stuff, as well. (I mean, above and beyond the moments of, "Hey, is that the same bridge from the pilot, or just a really similar-looking one?")

I mean, the thing I keep coming back to is how much Gordon's torture of Lenore reminded me of Dean's actions with Meg in "Devil's Trap" and the pushing forward of the exocism, even after he knew there was a human girl in there, even after he knew it would probably kill her.

It's tricky, a balancing act, because we, the viewer, don't needed anvils for grey areas. We've been shown them over the last 24 episodes; we know they're there. Dean, on the other hand, even as scared as he said he was about the things he'd do for his family, well, Dean needs anvils. Because Dean drank the Winchester Kool-Aid. And I don't think they got the balance perfectly right last night. Much as I, like many, loved the Buffy/Faith aspects of Dean and Gordon's interaction.

I may have more thoughts. I may even organize them later. I'm loving the way that they're running with the way their world's been turned inside out, how John's message of getting the demon at all costs turned out to be one on which even he himself couldn't follow though when the choice was demon or Dean's life, how they've set up this sort of tension between this insular, isolated upbringing at this wider world of hunters, and hell, the wider world at large.

P-C, have you seen SPN S1 yet?

I haven't, and if I continue to enjoy the show, I'll mainline when the time presents itself. I've been told by enough people, and I'm definitely getting the sense that watching the last season would put extra layers on this season.

Dean, on the other hand, even as scared as he said he was about the things he'd do for his family, well, Dean needs anvils.

Yeah, as anvilicious as it all was, it didn't seem forced. I definitely liked that it led to Dean's being sort of hesitant about the "KILL ALL DEMONS" mentality he had just been pimping to Sam at the start of the episode. Especially because Sam just decided that this was what he wanted to do, this was what they were meant for. And when your purpose in life becomes unclear, things are bad.

how they've set up this sort of tension between this insular, isolated upbringing at this wider world of hunters

Is this a new thing? Because from what I read about the introduction of Ellen and Jo, I gathered that last season, Dean and Sam didn't really know there were other Hunters out there. I thought it was cool that Gordon had heard about John's death. And, yet, Ellen hadn't.

than just showing shades of grey in a previously black and white world.

I think it also served to address Dean's major identity issues. We started in on that in season one, too--and this is essentially a question of whether Dean is slated to become his father, or if he can become his father, and even more so of whether he *wants* to become his father. Just like Sam underwent a major identity shift with the death of their dad, choosing to stay and hunt because that's what he kind of wants rather than doing it out of a need for revenge (which, interestingly, we seem to have lost the thread of in his characterization; I like him better for it) or a mulish respondibility; so too Dean is choosing whether he wants to live his life in the complete absolutes of their dad. John's death represents a lot, not just me cursing Shonda Rimes for giving him a leading role--it also represents a rebirth for them both, making their own path and coming out from the shadow of their father. It's also represented by their encounter with Gordon, and with Ellen and Jo--their dad kept that part of the life from them, for a number of possible reasons that will be fanwanked for ages to come, and by encountering those parts of the hunter life they are embracing it for themselves and not just as subsidiaries of John's work. Not unlike Heroes, actually, with Mohinder discovering his father's work on genetics and choosing to continue it; though that is driven more by a burning desire to know what he was doing and to symbolically take revenge on the people/serial killer that brought him down.

With Sam and Dean, it's interesting to me that it's less explicit--there is an element of revenge in what they do, certainly, but I have come to believe that it's overshadowed by their upbringing. This is what they know, this is what they were trained to do, and as everyone in the hunting world they encounter so far seems to note, they're quite good at it. John had motives that he didn't necessarily impart on his son, though his worldview certainly implanted on them. I like to think that Sam's rebellion against John wasn't necessarily what they were doing, in terms of hunting and fighting evil; it had more to do with the mental landscape behind that. And for Sam, the only way to get out of it manifested itself in this quest for "normal." With Dean, it's a supression of such rebellion and a focus on obediance. But with John gone, they come together to keep doing the work, abandoning those ideals that were counter to John's worldview and fashioning a different mental modus operandi from their father while performing the same job. In a sense, they've finally grown up, which John's presence kept them from doing, to protect them, perhaps.

Much as I, like many, loved the Buffy/Faith aspects of Dean and Gordon's interaction.

Truthfully, to me it felt more like Gordon was trying to re-dose him with the kool-aid, when the smoke had finally been cleared from Dean's eyes with his dad's death. To mix metaphors in a particularly horrendous way.

how John's message of getting the demon at all costs turned out to be one on which even he himself couldn't follow though when the choice was demon or Dean's life

I think essentially that this was a faulty message, the part of John's worldview that neither Dean nor Sam could accept and so reacted to it in different ways (see above), Dean with sublimation and Sam with breaking away from his family.

Is this a new thing? Because from what I read about the introduction of Ellen and Jo, I gathered that last season, Dean and Sam didn't really know there were other Hunters out there. I thought it was cool that Gordon had heard about John's death. And, yet, Ellen hadn't.

Knowing that there's a community of sorts (vs. a network of lone wolfs) is new. Gordon probably heard through Ellen and company.

Truthfully, to me it felt more like Gordon was trying to re-dose him with the kool-aid, when the smoke had finally been cleared from Dean's eyes with his dad's death. To mix metaphors in a particularly horrendous way.

Hmm. See, I don't know that the smoke had been cleared so much as new smoke had been added, though I do think Gordon was trying to push Dean into what Gordon thought should be Dean's path of Hunt-Find-Kill, with a side of pleasure in it.

And, of course, Sammy was right about the hole filling issue. Dean's flailing for purchase right now, poor bean.

(OH! And if you haven't yet, Cosmic's second entry on the ep. was filled with thinking in the good way, so you should read it, Ms. SA.)

I think essentially that this was a faulty message, the part of John's worldview that neither Dean nor Sam could accept and so reacted to it in different ways (see above), Dean with sublimation and Sam with breaking away from his family.

Oh, absolutely.

See, I don't know that the smoke had been cleared so much as new smoke had been added, though I do think Gordon was trying to push Dean into what Gordon thought should be Dean's path of Hunt-Find-Kill, with a side of pleasure in it.

Okay, I can buy this. It's essentially what I was thinking.

Cosmic? I should probably know this, shouldn't I?

i get to talk meta with plei again. you can't see me, but I'm bouncing on my couch.