than just showing shades of grey in a previously black and white world.

I think it also served to address Dean's major identity issues. We started in on that in season one, too--and this is essentially a question of whether Dean is slated to become his father, or if he can become his father, and even more so of whether he *wants* to become his father. Just like Sam underwent a major identity shift with the death of their dad, choosing to stay and hunt because that's what he kind of wants rather than doing it out of a need for revenge (which, interestingly, we seem to have lost the thread of in his characterization; I like him better for it) or a mulish respondibility; so too Dean is choosing whether he wants to live his life in the complete absolutes of their dad. John's death represents a lot, not just me cursing Shonda Rimes for giving him a leading role--it also represents a rebirth for them both, making their own path and coming out from the shadow of their father. It's also represented by their encounter with Gordon, and with Ellen and Jo--their dad kept that part of the life from them, for a number of possible reasons that will be fanwanked for ages to come, and by encountering those parts of the hunter life they are embracing it for themselves and not just as subsidiaries of John's work. Not unlike Heroes, actually, with Mohinder discovering his father's work on genetics and choosing to continue it; though that is driven more by a burning desire to know what he was doing and to symbolically take revenge on the people/serial killer that brought him down.

With Sam and Dean, it's interesting to me that it's less explicit--there is an element of revenge in what they do, certainly, but I have come to believe that it's overshadowed by their upbringing. This is what they know, this is what they were trained to do, and as everyone in the hunting world they encounter so far seems to note, they're quite good at it. John had motives that he didn't necessarily impart on his son, though his worldview certainly implanted on them. I like to think that Sam's rebellion against John wasn't necessarily what they were doing, in terms of hunting and fighting evil; it had more to do with the mental landscape behind that. And for Sam, the only way to get out of it manifested itself in this quest for "normal." With Dean, it's a supression of such rebellion and a focus on obediance. But with John gone, they come together to keep doing the work, abandoning those ideals that were counter to John's worldview and fashioning a different mental modus operandi from their father while performing the same job. In a sense, they've finally grown up, which John's presence kept them from doing, to protect them, perhaps.

Much as I, like many, loved the Buffy/Faith aspects of Dean and Gordon's interaction.

Truthfully, to me it felt more like Gordon was trying to re-dose him with the kool-aid, when the smoke had finally been cleared from Dean's eyes with his dad's death. To mix metaphors in a particularly horrendous way.

how John's message of getting the demon at all costs turned out to be one on which even he himself couldn't follow though when the choice was demon or Dean's life

I think essentially that this was a faulty message, the part of John's worldview that neither Dean nor Sam could accept and so reacted to it in different ways (see above), Dean with sublimation and Sam with breaking away from his family.

Is this a new thing? Because from what I read about the introduction of Ellen and Jo, I gathered that last season, Dean and Sam didn't really know there were other Hunters out there. I thought it was cool that Gordon had heard about John's death. And, yet, Ellen hadn't.

Knowing that there's a community of sorts (vs. a network of lone wolfs) is new. Gordon probably heard through Ellen and company.

Truthfully, to me it felt more like Gordon was trying to re-dose him with the kool-aid, when the smoke had finally been cleared from Dean's eyes with his dad's death. To mix metaphors in a particularly horrendous way.

Hmm. See, I don't know that the smoke had been cleared so much as new smoke had been added, though I do think Gordon was trying to push Dean into what Gordon thought should be Dean's path of Hunt-Find-Kill, with a side of pleasure in it.

And, of course, Sammy was right about the hole filling issue. Dean's flailing for purchase right now, poor bean.

(OH! And if you haven't yet, Cosmic's second entry on the ep. was filled with thinking in the good way, so you should read it, Ms. SA.)

I think essentially that this was a faulty message, the part of John's worldview that neither Dean nor Sam could accept and so reacted to it in different ways (see above), Dean with sublimation and Sam with breaking away from his family.

Oh, absolutely.

See, I don't know that the smoke had been cleared so much as new smoke had been added, though I do think Gordon was trying to push Dean into what Gordon thought should be Dean's path of Hunt-Find-Kill, with a side of pleasure in it.

Okay, I can buy this. It's essentially what I was thinking.

Cosmic? I should probably know this, shouldn't I?

i get to talk meta with plei again. you can't see me, but I'm bouncing on my couch.

lj user!

Who, like the usual suspects (cough*mely*cough) had wonderful thoughts on the ep.

Okay, I can buy this. It's essentially what I was thinking.

Plus. it's seriously amusing to picture Gordon asking Dean if hunting doesn't make him hungry and horny. Though, of course, I suppose Dean would respond that he occasionally craves a low-fat waitress.

Is SPN season 1 available on DVD at all? I feel a possible need to actually start watching this show.

Yep! It came out a month or so before the season two premiere: [link]

I saw mely had posted something but at that point I hadn't watched it yet. I'm going to go back to the newsletter to browse people's thoughts.

Plus. it's seriously amusing to picture Gordon asking Dean if hunting doesn't make him hungry and horny. Though, of course, I suppose Dean would respond that he occasionally craves a low-fat waitress.

You know, I can kind of see where you're seeing that, but I didn't see it at sexual at all. And, like, I'm the first to jump on that kind of bandwagon, you know? But I'm probably really blinded by the wincest.

Is SPN season 1 available on DVD at all? I feel a possible need to actually start watching this show.

It was in my Gold Box last night when I went to buy Avatar. I was all, "That's just MEAN, Amazon!"

You know, I can kind of see where you're seeing that, but I didn't see it at sexual at all. And, like, I'm the first to jump on that kind of bandwagon, you know? But I'm probably really blinded by the wincest.

You are. *g*

But, as I've told you, I'm hodgeberry light when it comes to the boys, so there was nothing between me and my slash goggles.

Is SPN season 1 available on DVD at all? I feel a possible need to actually start watching this show.

Hee!

Warnings: excessive exposure to SPN leads to spontaneous outbursts of Oh, DEAN!, Oh, SAMMY!, and Oh, JOHN! and a possible desire to listen to Kansas.

Oh, and secondary symptoms may include putting S2 of Dark Angel in your Netflix queue. (Curse you, Ackles.)

Sigh. When I think of the problems my SPN set from Amazon had. . .

Ha!

I have a friend who totally succumbed and bought BOTH seasons of Dark Angel.

Oh the humanity.