In fact, several people I know who believe the Bible literally also believe that it's very important to understand the historical and cultural context of the Bible, otherwise some of the actions don't make sense and seem random.

One of these days God should just go, "You know, I really need to get a new edition of the Bible out there. Let's see - who can I divinely inspire?"

Why can't a person read the Bible as the literal word of God while placing it in the relevant context?

Well, I think that we can expect a bit more cultural transcendence from an all knowing and eternal creator than we would from an ordinary person.

But the Bible was written for ordinary persons. It had to be written in a way that would make sense to the readers of a given time and place. God's truths are free of context, you betcha. But the medium through which they're delivered -- the Bible -- is inescapably tied to a culture and historical time.

Anyway the cultural argument that literal believers generally make can be reduced to "Ok, that was a really bad thing that God did but people back then were twice as bad, so it really was a significant improvement." I expect more from my supreme beings.

But you're basing your image of a supreme being on the interpretation that other people are using. Like that game of "telephone," where the message that gets passed along ends up being very different from what the first person said.

I didn't make my mind up about God based on others' opinions of him; I read the Bible. And I read it in context, both historical/cultural AND in terms of language.

God's nature in the OT -- which is exactly the same as his nature in the NT -- is both merciful *and* just. We like to focus on the merciful aspect, but there's more to God than hugs and puppies. Because he's a just God, he punishes those who deserve it. If he didn't, *that* would make him a sadistic bastard.

So far as Jews and the Pentateuch, there has been a tradition of commentary for millenia and possibly from the beginning.

Yes, Judaism has a rich and evolving history of struggling with these issues and, of course, it recognizes that these stories apply to a particular time and a particular people. The same can not be said for fundamentalist Christians.

You never see Tele-Rabbis condemning Lutheran kids in North Dakota for eating cheeseburgers. Cheeseburgers have to do with their way of worshiping God. But fundamentalist Christians take the Bible as universal truth and have no qualms about applying it outside a cultural context.

Because he's a just God, he punishes those who deserve it.

I don't think I deserve an infinitely long punishment just because I don't believe in Jesus... or for that matter because I sometimes swear or covet my neighbor's girlfriend....

But frequently all you have to do to deserve punishment is fail to worship God. For such a powerful being, his ego's pretty fragile.

Because he's a just God, he punishes those who deserve it.

Lot's wife? I guess because she was told not to look back? Still seems overly harsh.

God's nature in the OT -- which is exactly the same as his nature in the NT -- is both merciful *and* just.

Did I mention all of the dead children, killed because of their relatives or their rulers or just because they live down the street from some jerk? How is this just?

Lot's wife? I guess because she was told not to look back? Still seems overly harsh.

What's often overlooked is that in those times there was a severe salt shortage, so there was much rejoicing....

Because he's a just God, he punishes those who deserve it.

I don't think I deserve an infinitely long punishment just because I don't believe in Jesus...

Honestly, *I* can't really address the issue of any person's salvation. Or even my own, really. All I can say about it is that God is mind-blowingly vast, far beyond humans' ability to comprehend.

What one book -- which was written by human beings, and then translated and re-translated and re-translated -- says about salvation (and how a person is "saved") is very very very likely not the whole picture.

God is infinite; I think it's safe to say that he has an infinite number of ways that he can work out with a given person how that person spends eternity.

He doesn't just punish those who deserve it, he punishes their families, thier children, their whole communities, sometimes. And his punishments are, to my mortal mind, often both extreme and arbitrary.

What I find most interesting about this whole conversation, Steph, is that an intelligent educated person like you - someone whose opinions and ideas I can respect - read the Bible the same way I did - "in context, both historical/cultural AND in terms of language" - and came to the completely opposite conclusion.