"You'll be sorry when I'm dead / and all this guilt will be on your head,"

I suspect (but can't honestly know) that most suicides are past that. The failed suicides, you betcha that's what is in their minds. The ones who slash the wrists the wrong direction, take 10 aspirin and panic, put a plastic bag over their head but don't tie it shut--all passive/aggresive behaviors. The ones that succeed because they thought it out and planned it to the last detail? They could care less; they wanted the pain to stop and it did.

The ones that succeed because they thought it out and planned it to the last detail? They could care less; they wanted the pain to stop and it did.

I agree, but I think a small percentage of these can still be passive-agressive. I think in most of these "competent" suicides, the person is thinking, "No one cares what happens to me anyway, so I'm only affecting myself." But some "competent" suicides the person could also be thinking, "This will show them."

Hey! Strega's awake! Strega should pick up the phone...

Or is that just not passive-aggressive?

That, I think. It's not that I'm disagreeing with how you're describing the mindset of some (I feel like I need to emphasize some) suicides -- just that I think passive-aggressive is the wrong term for it. Even if it's "this will show them," that's not passive-aggressive. It's aggressive.

I may be reacting weirdly to the discussion, so factor that in. Not in a bad way... Hrm. I think "passive-aggressive" has specific connotations to me.

But some "competent" suicides the person could also be thinking, "This will show them."

I think there is that. Not the majority, but there are some folks who it's just in their behavior to do that, even if suicidal. However, I think that depending on where the pain originates, any note the person leaves is going to be directed at the source of that pain. I also think there is some possibility that in cases where they blame someone else they really wanted to be stopped and succeeded accidentally.

I've known two suicides, one was my grandfather and he did everything possible to keep it on the down-low. In fact, it took the family nearly six hours to find his body. It was something he'd planned out as a contingeny when he was in the hospital being treated for prostrate cancer. The day after he came home from the hospital, he ate a bullet. It was obvious in his note that it was done entirely out of shame for something over which he had no control, which is where his pain came from. He was a manly-man and his body wasn't supposed to betray him that way. At the time, I couldn't understand it and I had a great amount of hatred directed at him for the way I felt he'd abandoned the family. Twenty years ago I would have said what he did was passive/aggressive, but now, after watching any number of people I love go through serious, painful illnesses I have a much better understanding of the despair that can undermine a person's ability to gut through a long and possibly terminal illness. Whether that illness is physical or mental is irrelevant, these folks just want the pain to stop and will do anything to make that happen. Sometimes, purging that pain requires more than just the physical act, it requires other forms of purging which is where suicide notes come in. It's just a shame that the act of writing it out isn't enough and that they feel compelled to totally end themselves in order to end the pain.

Okay, off my soapbox. I just feel pretty strongly about people's right to choose, so I feel the need sometimes to provide a little education.

just that I think passive-aggressive is the wrong term for it. Even if it's "this will show them," that's not passive-aggressive. It's aggressive.

I guess I'm thinking it's passive-agressive in the sense that it's engaging in self-destructive behavior that's also calculated to make others feel guilty for the causes of such behavior. (Still talking about only some suicides.) But yeah - I'm not positive "passive-agressive" is the best term....

I'm not positive "passive-agressive" is the best term....

Yeah, I kinda understand what you mean, but to me passive-aggressive is something that can only happen in a sort of feedback loop where the action keeps bouncing back and forth. With a suicide, it kind of ends the feedback loop at the "aggressive" portion, there's no opportunity for the cycle to continue. Except that it leaves the people left behind in the position of enforced passiveness, but that's not what passive-aggressive behavior means.

Huh. I've been reading stuff on passive-agressive behavior, and have discovered that it includes other behaviors than what I'm thinking of. Maybe what I'm thinking of could better be described as a martyr complex...

Eta: From wikipedia - one type of martyr complex:

A person may feel undervalued and taken for granted because he gives so much and puts up with so much in return; this is often associated with a superiority complex. A person in this situation seeks other people to feel pity for him, saying things like "I gave her everything, and she ruined my life." While posing as altruists, such people are in fact self-centered and manipulative. Their behavior is a kind of passive-aggressive behavior.

Now, that makes a lot of sense. And it is still a form of passive-aggressive behavior, just more specific.

How do you distinguish a victim of martyr complex from a "I regret that I have but one life to give" hero? If it's a cause we agree with, they're heroes. Otherwise it's a pathology. I guess that might be why the term makes me twitchy; most human behavior is intended to elicit a response, and usually that intention is hidden.

Semi-randomly: I liked the book "Games People Play" because it didn't really bother about judging behavior; it just described it. Or at least that's what I remember of it. Plus I'm a behaviorist running dog. So I think because of that, I reserve "passive-aggressive" for dynamics where the response (or lack of response) is part of the game. This may be a distinction that only makes sense in my head. I'm not sure because it's 3 AM and I've had rum & cokes and I need to go to bed now. Zzz.