I'm not positive "passive-agressive" is the best term....

Yeah, I kinda understand what you mean, but to me passive-aggressive is something that can only happen in a sort of feedback loop where the action keeps bouncing back and forth. With a suicide, it kind of ends the feedback loop at the "aggressive" portion, there's no opportunity for the cycle to continue. Except that it leaves the people left behind in the position of enforced passiveness, but that's not what passive-aggressive behavior means.

Huh. I've been reading stuff on passive-agressive behavior, and have discovered that it includes other behaviors than what I'm thinking of. Maybe what I'm thinking of could better be described as a martyr complex...

Eta: From wikipedia - one type of martyr complex:

A person may feel undervalued and taken for granted because he gives so much and puts up with so much in return; this is often associated with a superiority complex. A person in this situation seeks other people to feel pity for him, saying things like "I gave her everything, and she ruined my life." While posing as altruists, such people are in fact self-centered and manipulative. Their behavior is a kind of passive-aggressive behavior.

Now, that makes a lot of sense. And it is still a form of passive-aggressive behavior, just more specific.

How do you distinguish a victim of martyr complex from a "I regret that I have but one life to give" hero? If it's a cause we agree with, they're heroes. Otherwise it's a pathology. I guess that might be why the term makes me twitchy; most human behavior is intended to elicit a response, and usually that intention is hidden.

Semi-randomly: I liked the book "Games People Play" because it didn't really bother about judging behavior; it just described it. Or at least that's what I remember of it. Plus I'm a behaviorist running dog. So I think because of that, I reserve "passive-aggressive" for dynamics where the response (or lack of response) is part of the game. This may be a distinction that only makes sense in my head. I'm not sure because it's 3 AM and I've had rum & cokes and I need to go to bed now. Zzz.

I've thought about committing suicide several times a year since the onset of puberty. I've never actually done a run-through, but I've researched methods. I'm a firm advocate of people's right to choose to check out. But there are definitely folks who are angry and the way they go about suicide shows that anger and/or selfishness. Sometimes depression is just anger turned inwards...anger with no safe external outlet. So it's not too surprising that once someone has decided to check out (or "take the bus" as they say on alt.suicide.holiday) and no longer faces any scary consequences, that their anger is free to surface in all its repressed glory.

People who choose a method like throwing themselves in front of a subway or crashing into oncoming traffic are pretty damned selfish, in my opinion. I don't know whether it comes from the desire for attention or anger at the world but if you've decided to check out, you can only make that decision for yourself. Taking out other people in an accident is freaking selfish.

For Bud Dwyer, I have no doubt that guy was filled with anger and felt screwed...I'm certain his chosen method was suffused with anger. I hadn't heard of Chubbuck before, but the quote (although it makes me laugh in a dark humor way) shows no small amount of anger on her part. Blowing your head off on broadcast TV is a big ol' "Fuck you!" to the world, including loads of innocent folks who have nothing to do with your dire straits or depression.

I confess I've often had self-pitying thoughts like "you wouldn't notice me until I'm gone", but if I were to actually kill myself one day, it's far more likely I'd be discreet about it. Although I'd feel more comfortable at home, I wouldn't want to leave a mess for anyone nor reduce the value of the property for my parents and sully it with bad vibes. So I'd probably slink off somewhere else. The people who do the super-public stuff (I would exclude bridge-jumping from this category since someone who jumps off a bridge over a body of water is not going to hit anyone and probably thinks of it as a fairly private exit), the stuff that involves non-consensuality, those are usually the angry ones.

I've only known, distantly, one person who committed suicide. She was terminally ill, and talked about it with her family first, so they could all try and talk her out of it if they wanted, or say goodbye. I never heard about the specifics, probably because it's still pretty illegal, but I thought it was a good way to go about things. If you're going to do it, I think discussing it with the people who'll be most affected is, at the very least, the polite thing to do.

finally got to sleep and thankfully only woke up one time until 6am.

Hivemind question: is google.com a valid email address? I thought all google mail was gmail.com.

It's a valid email address for someone who works at Google.

Morning! What a cheery discussion to wake to! :-/

My friend Katherine Lawrence evidently spent months planning -- even scheduling -- her suicide, including buying a gun and taking a shooting course, and keeping this hidden from the folks who saw her on even a daily basis. I think she was so set on this course that she didn't want to have any arguments or intervention. I'm not sure if this constitutes "sane consideration" or craziness that is so warped that it's wrapped around to look like sanity. I just wish her friends had had a chance to argue that she should have tried some other life choices before shooting herself.

Morning! What a cheery discussion to wake to! :-/

Isn't it though!

The one suicide that stands out in my mind was an ex-boyfirend. His family was close to my family. His father died young leaving him in charge of a large family business at a very young age. He overdosed on heroin of all things. He had never done drugs and was clearly a suicide. So sad. He had so much going for him when you looked at his life from the outside. Good looking, rich. Didn't help his pain.

When my father and late husband were nearing the end of their lives I would have assisted them without hesitation to end their pain. They never asked. Mostly I think it is a personal decision.

My own personal beliefs and upbringing make it not an option. To bring in the woo, I have this feeling that karma dictates that suicide is a do-over and you have to learn all the crap you learned in your previous lives all over again. That would suck.