The narrative requires that the mentor leave the hero so that the hero can grow up and take charge, but in both cases the motivations for Giles and Dumbledore leaving are very flimsy.

And I'd argue that Giles left because he honestly thought that would be for the best and not part of some grander plan, flimsy as the excuse was. Dumbledore's reason for leaving was entirely tactical.

But the narrative didn't require Giles leave. Didn't he only leave because of meta reasons?

But the narrative didn't require Giles leave. Didn't he only leave because of meta reasons?

ASH left for meta reasons.

Let me make the distinction in the narrative. There's the plot portion of the story as it exists in Buffy's world. But there's also the metaphorical narrative which is different, and has to clear a space in the story for Buffy to grow without her mentor.

My complaint is that these two narrative elements are not well reconciled. The plotty reasons for Giles to leave are ill-conceived compared to the fact that Buffy has risen from the dead and lost her mother and has to take on the adult responsibility of raising her sister.

But saying Giles "had to leave" for any narrative reason is mis-stating things. Was there any intention for him to leave if ASH hadn't?

To his credit, Dumbledore does suffer grievously as he tries to eliminate the horcruxes, first taking the curse into his hand which is fatal,

Wasn't it revealed in the last book that his hand was destroyed not as part of an effort to destroy the horcrux, but because he believes the ring was the resurrection stone and was so tempted by that power that he put it on? Then Snape saved him by confining the destruction to only the hand that had worn the ring.

Yes, he did sacrifice himself with the basin potion and the inferi...which just struck me as martyring himself in Harry's eyes because he already knew the curse of the ring was killing him. He could have done far more to earn Harry's love and loyalty. It pissed me off royally that he with held so much vital information.

But saying Giles "had to leave" for any narrative reason is mis-stating things.

I don't think so. In the classic "hero's journey" the hero must separate from their mentor. This is the metaphorical aspect of the narrative, and I do think that even if ASH didn't leave then his role would have to be diminished for Buffy to emerge. So that she's not taking orders from him.

Was there any intention for him to leave if ASH hadn't?

I don't know.

Anyone here through A Storm of Swords? Ye gods, my head is about to explode.

but because he believes the ring was the resurrection stone and was so tempted by that power that he put it on?

That's true, but I found that weakness endearing, since he wanted to see his sister and, I suspect, ask her forgiveness.

I'm only about 20% into Storm of Swords. These books are so addicting! And horribly, horribly bleak!

I'm just now starting the first one. But I am ready for bleak!