I love the Owen pictures, Cashmere. Oh, he just the cutest.

I think it is an issue of personal freedom.

I don't. Or more precisely, I think the argument there is about as strong as the one for avoiding jury duty or paying taxes.

I don't understand how by-choice non-voters are excluded by anything except by self-exclusion.

It's a public good, in economic terms. "Every vote counts" is not true at an individual level. It's true in aggregate. It may well be that I hold a view that most people around me agree with, but who won't make that known because they don't believe their vote changes anything (which it doesn't, individually), or because they have more important things to deal with in their own lives (which they do, individually) or simply because they don't care as much.

This, of course, is the dynamic that allows special interests to hijack a system. Corporate welfare, for instance, is worth a great deal to a few people in a position to benefit from it, and who thus will push hard to get it. It costs the rest of the country more than it's worth to the people who get it, but because it's so spread out, the people disadvantaged by it don't care as much and don't push back to the same extent.

What is skewing it. I'm not arguing. I'm just not following, I guess.

Given that the categories against which it skews tend to be those who have the least political voice to begin with, I would say a feeling of disenfrachisement is a likely contributor to voter apathy. Of course, this is only exacerbated when the people also affected by the issues that most affect you don't believe that their votes count and don't contribute them. They don't just disenfranchise themselves.

There'll be other factors too, of course. In the US, where there's no standardisation of the electoral process, residents of poorer districts are likely to have a harder time registering a valid vote. That skews the cost-benefit analysis of trying to vote in the first place. Bad weather affects voter turnout too. Political interference is a possibility; the Jim Crow laws post-Civil War are an obvious example, but some of the Floridian issues of the 2000 election indicate it's not a dead issue.

In short, people who regard their vote in ideal terms, as democracy incarnate, will vote regardless. People who take a more pragmatic approach to things (i.e. most people) will have the probability of them voting, and thus of them - and people impacted by the same issues as them - being heard, affected by external factors.

The hundred dollar fine would pretty much result in all poor people voting.

No WAY we're going to push for that.

Political interference is a possibility; the Jim Crow laws post-Civil War are an obvious example, but some of the Floridian issues of the 2000 election indicate it's not a dead issue.

Or the NeoCon voter challenges in Washington State last year.

Political interference is a possibility; the Jim Crow laws post-Civil War are an obvious example, but some of the Floridian issues of the 2000 election indicate it's not a dead issue.

Or the NeoCon voter challenges in Washington State last year.

Or Ohio's Secretary of State investing in a voting machine company.

As some additional material, Wikipedia has stuff on both the Australian electoral system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_electoral_system) and compulsory voting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting), if anyone's interested.

Do you think that the American culture will support the low amount of declining voters and spoiled ballots if the vote were mandatory? Or would the culture support it in time? For how long would things get worse before they got better?

I'm not sure. I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying there. What's declining, the number of voters or the number of non-voters? Re spoiled ballots, I myself am in favour of including a "No Preference" option on the ballot (which of course just formalises the de facto option of entering a spoiled ballot), but I don't know how anyone else would feel. For myself, I think it would be valuable information to be able to distinguish between people who genuinely don't have a preference and those who do but just felt the personal cost of registering it outweighed the benefit.

If I didn't want to vote now, fining me $100 is unlikely to get me to cast an informed vote, if I cast one at all and don't decide to just pay up for the privilege of not being bothered.

Under the Australian system, you would have the right to make that choice. The effect of compulsory voting on voter turnout suggests you're in a small minority, but I would certainly support your right to make that call.

but I would certainly support your right to decide a quarter hour of your time is worth $100 to you.

It only takes 15 minutes to vote in Australia?

Can we have that system?

It only takes 15 minutes to vote in Australia?

How long does it take in the US to send off a postal vote?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying there. What's declining, the number of voters or the number of non-voters?

We're even, because I don't understand your question. I didn't say anything was declining.

What I mean by "worse" is the idea that if I have to show up (because I'm not going to pay up) and I'm no more informed that I was before voting was mandatory what good is my vote then? At what point does your voter turnout actually vote based on something other than primacy or euphonious names, or perceived ethnic heritage, or a bunch of other things that are unrelated to platform? How long before the voters become even vaguely educated? Also, is random voting more likely than simply spoiling a ballot?

The effect of compulsory voting on voter turnout suggests you're in a small minority, but I would certainly support your right to decide a quarter hour of your time is worth $100 to you.

Me, a minority again?

When did Australia institute mandatory voting? Do you have turnout numbers from just before then until the numbers started levelling out?

How long does it take in the US to send off a postal vote?

What's a postal vote? Is that like an absentee ballot?

Typically you can only vote absentee if you have some reason why you can't make it to the polls on election day.