Hmmm. I'm trying to imagine such a scenario; although the final run of episodes in Farscape sort of does that to me. The characters themselves seem rather pleased (aside from the jujube business) but I'm deeply disturbed because I think they're bugfuck crazy.

Heh. Well, there's that. No, I was thinking imposed from outside - drugs, mind control, whatever.

Oh, yeah, that'd work. Or maybe someone dies happy?

You could probably write something I would consider darkfic in which the characters themselves were very, very happy and satisfied.

Many parts of the Angel S4 finale could fall into this category, if you think about it.

So I guess the question is, whose perspective is most important when defining darkfic? The characters' or the readers'?

I'm not sure they can be separated out. A lot of the darkness in a fic like TCoDB comes from the divide between the reader's perspective and the characters'. The characters see only the darkness that surrounds them individually and that darkness (or delusion, in the case of "Home") impacts how the reader sees the rest of the story, while the rest of the story affects how the reader views each individual character.

the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark

In good darkfic, I get the feeling that the author is suffering alongside (or on behalf) of the character. In those cases, much of the pain comes from the way that the different characters act and react--there is respect for and acknowledgement of the characters' loves, hates, hopes, fears, quirks, virtues, and flaws.

With the bad stuff, the author comes across more as a sadist than anything else.

You could probably write something I would consider darkfic in which the characters themselves were very, very happy and satisfied.

In Smallville, Jenn's story...um...crap, I've forgotten the title, because it scared me and I never finished it. t checks PolyRecs "A Handful of Dust." Or Rivka's "Golden Rule."

In Jenn's story, Superman is basically a cult leader, right? And Lex gives in to him at the end. And in Rivka's, Lex has amnesia, and both characters prefer it that way, because they don't have to deal with all the crap that came before.

Oh, yeah, that'd work. Or maybe someone dies happy?

Hmm. Not, for me, if they died happy because they were accomplishing something they wanted to accomplish. Buffy's death in "The Gift," for instance. That accomplished something.

I Am Sad Because My Love Is Dead And Thus I Will Commit Happy Suicide would certainly count, though.

In good darkfic, I get the feeling that the author is suffering alongside (or on behalf) of the character. In those cases, much of the pain comes from the way that the different characters act and react--there is respect for and acknowledgement of the characters' loves, hates, hopes, fears, quirks, virtues, and flaws.

With the bad stuff, the author comes across more as a sadist than anything else.

Hmm. Yeah, that pings for me. God, I'd've made a crappy liberal arts person; I can't get away from authorial intent.

I think authorial intent is compounded in fandom, where you're quite likely to know a given author, and perhaps have read their analysis or critique, so you know their take on a character even outside the context of fic. Worse, you may know if they have a particular hobby-horse they like to ride, and that knowledge may make you hypersensitive to certain issues in the story that maybe aren't intended to be so easily discernable.

"A Handful of Dust."

I think that's it. I think that was also one of the first pieces of feedback I ever sent.

In those cases, much of the pain comes from the way that the different characters act and react--there is respect for and acknowledgement of the characters' loves, hates, hopes, fears, quirks, virtues, and flaws.

In this respect, well done darkfic should be no different than well done anyfic. I mean, the dark has to feel as earned as the happy, for me.

I have no idea if that makes any sense.

(Though, I've seen technically well-written stuff that's considered darkfic that I didn't buy, but that's mainly because the darkness was the wrong sort of darkness for the character in question. Or, why I'm the only person on the planet who didn't seem to like Slightly Darker than Black or Burn. I tried. I read them three or four times each in an effort to like them. They failed me.)

I mean, the dark has to feel as earned as the happy, for me

Yup.

For myself, I don't care how well written the darkfic is, if at the end the characters are emotionally flayed/terminally fucked up/whatever and all the future holds is continuing to drag that fucked-upness around with them, polluting everything they do without them being able to move past it or incorporate it into at least acceptance, then it's not something I want to read. I don't even care if they die horribly, I want to them at least be at peace with themselves dying horribly, even if it's just being able to mutter one more "fuck you" at the fates. To go completely me-me-me, if I want angst and worst case scenarios etc., I'll wait till the next time I'm in an emergency room with my husband.

This is really fascinating to follow--glad ya'll are chatty today. Only downside is that you're making me want to write really dark fic that breaks its characters in new and interesting ways.

Jenn's story...um...crap, I've forgotten the title, because it scared me and I never finished it. "A Handful of Dust."

Yes. Ow. God.

I recently read a story in popslash that kept me flinching away from the screen, because it hurt, hurt, hurt the characters and didn't even try to fix them. And oh, it was good. I was interested in my own reaction, because I enjoyed every minute of skull-numbing pain and angst. Why do we like to hurt the characters so much? I mean, you've talked about this a little, but why does it work, as writers, to tear down characters? And even more so, when there's no set resolution? I often like those the best, the ones where there is no right answer, because I've been there.