I don't agree, either quantitatively, or qualitatively, and I think that's where the "here is the line!", "No, here is the line!" argument becomes a stalemate.

I'm sorry, I thought I'd tried to make it clear that this is my visceral feeling, and not some law I think should be agreed with, just as I'm not interested in real-person fic but obviously do not think that's true for everybody.

I've long since given up trying to figure out the appeal. People I respect write it, and I don't know why, and it doesn't reach me in the same way as fic.

If I had any doubt about my own stance on the matter, it was erased at Escapade last year. Someone mentioned that Sean Bean is often written in lotrips as abusive, and the bottom of my stomach fell out. End of story for me.

The reason you might be feeling more squicked by ME-verse actorslash than popslash, Vonnie, is that popslash has just been on your horizon longer.

Hmm. I guess if I get constant exposure, I may become inured to actorfic, but the truth be told, I didn't really care overmuch that people were writing about Lance and JC when the popslash took off. Mainly because I didn't know who they were, what their music was like--actually, I still can't tell the boys apart. They might as well have been original fictional characters as far as I was concerned.

With the ME actors--well, I like them. I care about them, insomuch as you could care about complete strangers. I don't like the idea of fans, no matter how erudite and brilliant they may be, using names and bodies and personalities of these actors for wish-fulfillment sexual fantasy. And I can't readily separate this from the universally-despised David Duchovny/Gillian Anderson 'shippers in the old XF fandom, no matter how loudly the writers cry that this is strictly fictional. I get the impression that I am supposed to consider the whole thing subversive and cutting edge, because BNFs are writing them, the writing is decent, and because it is largely slash. Which bugs me.

Anyway.

Playing with my toys is very different from playing with me, no matter how much I love my toys.

That's where my distinction is.

I don't know a whole lot of famous people, but AFAICT only the one with fifty years in the business considers his persona his toy in a distant way.

But that's exactly where the Buffy people I respect are going. Marsters/Boreanaz slash. And, yes, it's personal, but that has always been my Do Not Cross line in fic.

Which, morally, I see as no different from Sedaris/Buckley or Sedaris/Tyson.

It's the wording that bothered me with your statement, because while it's your Do Not Cross line, you made it sound as if it was THE Do Not Cross Line.

Here's a question: IS there One True Do Not Cross Line when it comes to fiction? (Obviously "and then I stalked James Marsters and kidnapped him and tied him up in my basement in real life!" is going to qualify as a line.) Is it ever okay to say "I believe this is immoral enough that I'm going to say something about it"?

Is it ever okay to say "I believe this is immoral enough that I'm going to say something about it"?

I think so, as long as you don't go around trying to actually stop people from doing it. We're all allowed to say whatever the fuck we want, you know? I honestly don't care what people write, what people think about what I write, or what might be going on in the corners of fandom that I don't know about.

On the other hand, reporting people to ISPs, or to their workplaces? Shoving slashy photomanips into actors' faces? Harassing people in e-mail or Livejournal? That's where it stops being "I think this is immoral" and turns into "You can only write what I approve of."

IS there One True Do Not Cross Line when it comes to fiction?

Pedophilia treated as romance. I'm talking pre-pubescent kids, not 16-17 year-olds.

The RPS thing is variable to me depending on the real people in question, so for me, the ME actorfic is more like a personal line, not THE line.

I've long since given up trying to figure out the appeal. People I respect write it, and I don't know why, and it doesn't reach me in the same way as fic.

And this is why Dana and I are the same person.

There's a real James Marsters, and it's nasty to put your fantasies about his boybits on to paper or phosphor and share them.

I'm perfectly happy not knowing which one JC is except by process of elimination, and letting the popslash/lotrips/rps people play with their toys

I completely agree with both of these statements, oddly.

Which is to say -- I, personally, can't read RPS, because it disturbs me to look at it and know that these are fantasies about flesh-and-blood people. The side of fandom that fetishizes actors (rather than characters) or singers (rather than their music) strikes me as very much missing the point. I even get kind of embarrassed for myself when I pick up Us magazine or whatever -- because logically, I know that thinking Catherine Zeta-Jones is hot doesn't make it intrinsically interesting to see pictures of her trying on shoes or walking her son to school. It kind of disturbs me that I know more about why Uma Thurman and Ethan Hawke separated than I do about some of my best friends' breakups. I mean, why did we decide that if someone's an entertainer, their *whole life* is entertainment? It doesn't really make much sense.

But that said, I've seen enough RPS to be aware that there *are* good writers working in those genres, and I respect the argument that they're writng about personas, not people. It doesn't make me want to read it, but I see that pretty boys bonding and putting on makeup can make for fun stories.

however, things like this:

Someone mentioned that Sean Bean is often written in lotrips as abusive, and the bottom of my stomach fell out.

turn my stomach, too. If you want to play with toys that look and sound like real people, I think you do have the responsibility to play nicely.