Here's Yatzee's site.

[link]

Mirror site is up. Same as the regular address, but expect this to be the full-time version in a month or two.

There are clearly definitions of Mary Sue to which I don't subscribe, from the list this lassie made in her LJ. For my part I am entirely well disposed to well-written original characters of either gender and I'm not going to start angsting over whether they're Mary Sues, because if they're well written they aren't Mary Sues, imho.

I interpret a Mary Sue in two ways. One is as a character who is a transparent self-insertion. This isn't neccesarily always a bad thing, and since all our characters (including our interpretations of characters made by other people) are neccesarily made out of ourselves, to a greater or lesser degree one could always argue for such-and-such a character being a Mary Sue. It's only a problem if it's badly written and/or uninteresting, which is generally the case. (I like Elizabeth Bennet, but I think she's quite close to Jane Austen in many respects.)

The other main definition of Mary Sue imho is the paragon. And this doesn't mean Buffy or John Crichton or whoever, because the whole point, imho, is that a Mary Sue is flat and poorly realised. That there isn't a believable person underneath the trappings of heroism. Not simply that she has such-and-such a power, or such-and-such an eye colour, or that some quirk of fate makes her pivotal to the survival of blah blah blah destinycakes - what makes a character (male of female) into a Mary Sue is that she is less than the sum of her parts. She's dull. It's all surface.

I've only once read something in fanfic that I really considered a Mary Sue (I tend not to go trawling for fic). It was when I first got started with the fanfic thing and had written a couple of stories and wanted to find a beta, but didn't know anyone else who did the fanfic thing. There are sites where people offer to beta, and I followed a link to this girl's fiction to see what it was like before asking her to beta for me. It started out painlessly enough, and indeed was quite interesting, but gradually we had the introduction of a character who turned out to be Giles's secret long-lost daughter, who was so expert in ancient languages that she could correct his translations, who became best friends with Willow, hung out with Oz and the band, inspired Faith with the urge to protect her and started dating Xander....

Which isn't to say that it was a terrible story, but it wasn't my cup of tea because the original character was at the centre and the other characters - the ones in whom I was interested - were simply reacting to her. In a universally positive way. I can see that this was enjoyable for that particular writer and I'm sure it was some people's cup of tea, but for me, not so much, so I stopped reading.

If you're interested in the canonical characters, then seeing them being reduced to foils for a shiny new character is what sets of the Mary Sue alarm. Introducing (an) interesting new character(s) to interact with them plausibly is another kettle of fish. (Take a bow AJ Hall.) Hell, by many definitions Lorne should be a Mary Sue, and so should Dawn and Connor, but I don't consider them that way because I think they've been well-developed and they don't come across as gratingly perfect or twee. To me. I know other people dislike Dawn and Connor (and perhaps Lorne?).

....oh, and suddenly I'm remembering that Groo is out there somewhere. Oh, bless him. Certainly he should have been a Mary Groo if judged simply by a list of qualities, but I didn't see him as one because he was played very effectively (imho) for laughs.

I miss Groo.

t /lone voice of Groo-love.

Mary Groo

snerk!

One of the real troubles with Mary-Sue is that people's definations tend to come down to 'I'll know it when I see it'. It's not a thing, a real state, it's an opinion. Which doesn't make it any less useful, just different.

Groo, bless his heart, didn't sing....

Groo, bless his heart, didn't sing....

is struck down with plot bunny

no singing in Pylea- Lorne teaching Groo to sing? (in return, Groo gives Lorne a quick "how to dance like Numfar" lesson...) Groo/Lorne...

Yep, it's a "kill me now" case.

Fay, you should stick that up in your LJ.

I do miss Groo. Wonder what he's up to.

t copied from Angel since I lost track of where I was Another aspect to a Mary Sue that I don't think I've seen mentioned is the utter lack of character growth. Sure, maybe she learns that she really is beautiful, but with no flaws, there's no room or need to grow either.

It's funny how much more sensitive to this I've gotten since being immersed in fandom. I was rereading a book the other day that I've always really liked. Not great literature by any stretch but something I was fond of. I hadn't looked at it in a few years, but this time I couldn't get away from the extreme MarySueness of the female lead. I ended up basically skimming through all her scenes to get to the ones that featured other, more real characters. Kind of a bummer, actually. I don't know that I'll be picking that one up again.

Brenda, that's ruined so many books for me. Like, almost all of the romance novels in the basement.