I don't see how you can possibly prove from first principles that a just God allows evil in the world. And I'm not just talking human free will -- I'm talking apes that kill one another, for instance, because of territorial bounds.
Good and evil are relational judgment calls; maybe God doesn't view apes killing each other as evil. Or orcas grabbing baby seals and playing with them for fun until they are flayed alive.
I've always thought this was the "no such thing as a free lunch" idea, i.e. there has to be cruelty and pain and evil for people to overcome. If there's temptation, you have to resist it. If there's an opportunity to hurt someone, you don't take it. If there's pain, you have to get through it and come out on the other side still thanking God for your blessings, and not hating him.
That's fine for humans, but what about the non-human cruelty/pain/evil in the world? Animals (don't have souls in Christianity) aren't sentient enough to choose or to count their blessings.
There's a passage where Jesus says, "No one comes to to Father but by me," which we were taught meant that you had to believe in Jesus to get to heaven.
Sucks to have been alive before Jesus, huh?
Well, I made it through one class before having such a coughing fit that I had to come home.
And I thought I was doing better...
I'm frustrated. Really, really frustrated.
Sucks to have been alive before Jesus, huh?
I had fun with my Sunday School teachers with that one.
See, I like this idea, as that means your fate is already determined, so there's really no use making any special effort to get into Heaven.
This has always been the logical flaw in Calvinism for me -- if your ticket's already written, you might as well sin freely, since there's nothing you can do to change God's will.
I think the standard answer is that you have to act as if you were saved, because otherwise it's clear you aren't.
Sucks to have been alive before Jesus, huh?
Catholicism (used?) to have something called the "Harrowing of Hell": during the three days Jesus was dead, he stormed through Hell rescuing all the virtuous pagans.
Pagans post-Jesus are SOL.
Sorry vw, I hope the coughing stops soon.
Aw, vw. You gave it a shot, though! You get major points for that.
That's fine for humans, but what about the non-human cruelty/pain/evil in the world? Animals (don't have souls in Christianity) aren't sentient enough to choose or to count their blessings.)
I guess I'm not sure I find it cruel that animals kill and eat other. It's survival of the fittest in the purest sense, to me. When it comes to animals as the victims of human cruelty, it's horrifying that they have to endure it, but I think in the example I posited, it's evidence of man's sins, something that would (theoretically, at least) provide others with a lesson, or an opportunity to do good by punishing the abuser.
I'm not sure I'm sharp enough for theology this morning, to be truthful.
Pagans post-Jesus are SOL.
That is part of what drove a wedge between me and my original Methodism. There were tons of folks born between the death of Christ and the time the first missionaries came by. They should go to hell why now? And I'm supposed to worship the kind of deity that would set that sort of situation up? Nuh and uh.
That is part of what drove a wedge between me and my original Methodism. There were tons of folks born between the death of Christ and the time the first missionaries came by. They should go to hell why now? And I'm supposed to worship the kind of deity that would set that sort of situation up? Nuh and uh.
In our church, this was handwaved away with, "God will figure something out."
