There's a passage where Jesus says, "No one comes to to Father but by me," which we were taught meant that you had to believe in Jesus to get to heaven.

Over the years I've been surprised to run into Christians who don't believe this - that you can get into heaven if you're not a Christian. That confused me, as I always saw that as one of the central tenets of Christianity.

I can tell you this much from the perspective of the Freak-Ass Church*, which is Protestant nondenominational, very evangelical, and very literal bible interpretation:

The simple answer is yes, they believe that non-Christians (i.e., those who do not accept Jesus as their savior) will go to hell. Just calling yourself a "Christian" and going to church every Sunday doesn't guarantee that you're a "Christian" by the accept-Jesus definition, and really, what ensures a seat in heaven is accepting Jesus, regardless of what you call yourself.

So, simple answer -- yes. Non-Christians will fry.

Less simple answer, which even the FAC recognized is a legitimate viewpoint: if you take the bible literally, it does say that no one comes to the Father (i.e., heaven) except through Jesus. It absolutely does.

However, here's the thing: the bible isn't real clear on what parameters make up the "through Jesus" part. It's pretty likely, however, that it isn't a narrowly defined thing, like you must say certain words, in front of a church full of people, and then get dunked in a holy pool, etc., etc., etc.

A controversial viewpoint is that maybe you don't even have to go "through Jesus" while you're alive. (I believe CS Lewis made that point, though it could have been Francis Schaeffer.) Because if there's *anything* we don't know, it's what happens after the monitor flatlines. Combine that uncertainty with the lack of specificity around "No one comes to the Father but through Jesus," and it's not at all outside the realm of possibility that "through Jesus" could occur after death. Or, at least, that post-death is one of the *options* to go "through Jesus."

I think the lack of specificity around "No one comes to the Father but through Jesus," was designed to have the exact opposite effect of the one it has now, in America, which is more or less a checklist of what you must do and say and how you must do it and say it in order to be a "Christian." I think "No one comes to the Father but through Jesus" very deliberately came without an instruction manual (or at least a long explicated paragraph explaining loopholes and exceptions), because there's more than one way for that to happen. There is probably an infinite number of ways, because God wants everyone. And if God wants everyone, and given that God made us all different and weird and almost incomprehensibly complex, then God is going to allow for -- and provide -- as many ways for us to come "through Jesus" as are needed to suit the crazy complex mess of humanity.

I could, however, be entirely full of shit, so please don't base your hope of eternal life on me.

*(I am speaking ONLY from *my* FAC's viewpoint, not the viewpoint of all Christians, all Protestants, all evangelicals, or even all FACs.)

Ooh, God's omniscience vs. free will - that's another fun topic we can debate!

I think the theory of gravity causes problems for the argument of free will.

I don't see how you can possibly prove from first principles that a just God allows evil in the world. And I'm not just talking human free will -- I'm talking apes that kill one another, for instance, because of territorial bounds.

Good and evil are relational judgment calls; maybe God doesn't view apes killing each other as evil. Or orcas grabbing baby seals and playing with them for fun until they are flayed alive.

I've always thought this was the "no such thing as a free lunch" idea, i.e. there has to be cruelty and pain and evil for people to overcome. If there's temptation, you have to resist it. If there's an opportunity to hurt someone, you don't take it. If there's pain, you have to get through it and come out on the other side still thanking God for your blessings, and not hating him.

That's fine for humans, but what about the non-human cruelty/pain/evil in the world? Animals (don't have souls in Christianity) aren't sentient enough to choose or to count their blessings.

There's a passage where Jesus says, "No one comes to to Father but by me," which we were taught meant that you had to believe in Jesus to get to heaven.

Sucks to have been alive before Jesus, huh?

Well, I made it through one class before having such a coughing fit that I had to come home.

And I thought I was doing better...

I'm frustrated. Really, really frustrated.

Sucks to have been alive before Jesus, huh?

I had fun with my Sunday School teachers with that one.

See, I like this idea, as that means your fate is already determined, so there's really no use making any special effort to get into Heaven.

This has always been the logical flaw in Calvinism for me -- if your ticket's already written, you might as well sin freely, since there's nothing you can do to change God's will.

I think the standard answer is that you have to act as if you were saved, because otherwise it's clear you aren't.

Sucks to have been alive before Jesus, huh?

Catholicism (used?) to have something called the "Harrowing of Hell": during the three days Jesus was dead, he stormed through Hell rescuing all the virtuous pagans.

Pagans post-Jesus are SOL.

{{vw}}

I'm sorry.

Sorry vw, I hope the coughing stops soon.

Aw, vw. You gave it a shot, though! You get major points for that.

That's fine for humans, but what about the non-human cruelty/pain/evil in the world? Animals (don't have souls in Christianity) aren't sentient enough to choose or to count their blessings.)

I guess I'm not sure I find it cruel that animals kill and eat other. It's survival of the fittest in the purest sense, to me. When it comes to animals as the victims of human cruelty, it's horrifying that they have to endure it, but I think in the example I posited, it's evidence of man's sins, something that would (theoretically, at least) provide others with a lesson, or an opportunity to do good by punishing the abuser.

I'm not sure I'm sharp enough for theology this morning, to be truthful.