I'm gonna leave to go shopping now. But the book is "Minimalism: A Bridge between classical philosophy and the Baha'i revelation" by William Hatcher if anybody wants to check it out. It really is interesting, though very dense and difficult to get through.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that.

But I'm not talking about the characteristics of God -- I'm talking about the characteristics of the world that He created. Which is full of cruelty.

But isn't that implicit in needing an explanation for that? (I'm not trying to be argumentative, btw, I just feel like I'm missing a key step in your question.)

The unique "first cause."

To me "first cause" is a massive assumption. We don't know that our sense of causality means anything outside our Universe and there is no reason to think it does.

To me "first cause" is a massive assumption. We don't know that our sense of causality means anything outside our Universe and there is no reason to think it does.

ITA. If the proof fails for me, that's where it happens. There is a LOT more justification and argument for it than I'm giving, though, so don't take my bad summary of it to be the whole.

And I really am leaving now.

I think we need bob bob.

Since we're talking about religion... I have a question for the Christians out there.

As some of you might remember, I was raised Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and went to a private Lutheran grade school. The Missouri Synod is the most conservative branck of Lutherans - we were taught a literal interpretation of the Bible. So one thing I picked up was the belief that if you were not a Christian you were going to hell. There's a passage where Jesus says, "No one comes to to Father but by me," which we were taught meant that you had to believe in Jesus to get to heaven.

Over the years I've been surprised to run into Christians who don't believe this - that you can get into heaven if you're not a Christian. That confused me, as I always saw that as one of the central tenets of Christianity. Now I'm wondering how widespread these various beliefs are. So, do most Christians believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?

But I'm not talking about the characteristics of God -- I'm talking about the characteristics of the world that He created. Which is full of cruelty.

But isn't that implicit in needing an explanation for that?

Well, I'm reasoning from a demonstrated fact, the cruelty of the Earth; this fact is true independent of whether or not God exists. An atheist can say "Well, natural selection works that way, doesn't it?" So can any believer, of course. Somebody who is reasoning to faith from logic has to explain why it is logical that God allows cruelty.

So, do most Christians believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?

I don't know about the "most" part of this, but there is a split between the belief that good works can get you into Heaven and the belief that you can only get there by Grace.

So, do most Christians believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?

Not me. I'm a small-u universalist: I believe that God offers salvation to all. (Note that this may or may not be a heresy, depending on which faith you're starting from.) "But through me" can mean "But through literal belief in Jesus", or it can mean "But through the intervention of Jesus." I reason from the statement that God made us in his image; if humans can forgive great wrongs, surely God, who is better than we are, can forgive all wrongs?

Any God who can, say, throw out the Dalai Lama and Gandhi is no God I'd care to worship.

Any God who can, say, throw out the Dalai Lama and Gandhi is no God I'd care to worship.

I usually limit myself to Gandhi, but that's a line I've used, and I'm surprised when the argument lasts more than ten minutes.