But I'm not talking about the characteristics of God -- I'm talking about the characteristics of the world that He created. Which is full of cruelty.

But isn't that implicit in needing an explanation for that?

Well, I'm reasoning from a demonstrated fact, the cruelty of the Earth; this fact is true independent of whether or not God exists. An atheist can say "Well, natural selection works that way, doesn't it?" So can any believer, of course. Somebody who is reasoning to faith from logic has to explain why it is logical that God allows cruelty.

So, do most Christians believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?

I don't know about the "most" part of this, but there is a split between the belief that good works can get you into Heaven and the belief that you can only get there by Grace.

So, do most Christians believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?

Not me. I'm a small-u universalist: I believe that God offers salvation to all. (Note that this may or may not be a heresy, depending on which faith you're starting from.) "But through me" can mean "But through literal belief in Jesus", or it can mean "But through the intervention of Jesus." I reason from the statement that God made us in his image; if humans can forgive great wrongs, surely God, who is better than we are, can forgive all wrongs?

Any God who can, say, throw out the Dalai Lama and Gandhi is no God I'd care to worship.

Any God who can, say, throw out the Dalai Lama and Gandhi is no God I'd care to worship.

I usually limit myself to Gandhi, but that's a line I've used, and I'm surprised when the argument lasts more than ten minutes.

There's a passage where Jesus says, "No one comes to to Father but by me," which we were taught meant that you had to believe in Jesus to get to heaven.

Over the years I've been surprised to run into Christians who don't believe this - that you can get into heaven if you're not a Christian. That confused me, as I always saw that as one of the central tenets of Christianity. Now I'm wondering how widespread these various beliefs are. So, do most Christians believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?

There is the whole "I am the way, the truth, and the life" part too.

So, if you're following the way, the truth, or the life you're following the big J himself even if you don't realize it or intend to.

I have no idea the statictical break-down of Christians who believe what about the fates of the dirty heathens, however.

Somebody who is reasoning to faith from logic has to explain why it is logical that God allows cruelty.

What's illogical about a cruel God?

What's illogical about a cruel God?

Nothing, inherently, but you have to admit it conflicts with the picture many people like to paint.

So, do most Christians believe that all non-Christians will go to hell?

I have no idea, I've heard all sorts of things about what happens to non-Christians. The oddest thing to me is the idea that God already knows who the "real" Christians are and everybody else goes to hell, but that may be a pretty small group.

What's illogical about a cruel God?

Nothing, inherently, but you have to admit it conflicts with the picture many people like to paint.

I've always thought this was the "no such thing as a free lunch" idea, i.e. there has to be cruelty and pain and evil for people to overcome. If there's temptation, you have to resist it. If there's an opportunity to hurt someone, you don't take it. If there's pain, you have to get through it and come out on the other side still thanking God for your blessings, and not hating him.

Not my personal belief, by the way, but one that I think some believers use to explain the existence of cruelty and evil.

The oddest thing to me is the idea that God already knows who the "real" Christians are and everybody else goes to hell, but that may be a pretty small group.

See, I like this idea, as that means your fate is already determined, so there's really no use making any special effort to get into Heaven.

Ooh, God's omniscience vs. free will - that's another fun topic we can debate!

(Kidding. But I won't complain if others debate this.)