'The Message'
Off-topic discussion. Wanna talk about corsets, duct tape, or physics? This is the place. Detailed discussion of any current-season TV must be whitefonted.
You are bringing up a chicken-and-egg argument. Is it shameful to have an abortion or do you feel shame because you had? doesn't matter if at the end of the day the net result is shame. Which it will be, I think, because the abortion part is only the ultimate shame, not the only piece.
I guess, Cindy, we'll just disagree on this point. I won't legislate your family if you won't legislate mine.
I don't think you have ownership of your children's bodies.
This rings true with me. Also, I think you slowly lose ownership of your children's lives. At some point, they become their own individuals, capable of making decisions, making friends, having sex, screwing up, getting in trouble, learning or not learning from the experience. At some point, no matter the age, they are not the parent's to control, and a parent can only hope that advice is taken. Where that line is for each person is impossible to delineate, and impossible to codify, and I think there has to be some flexibility in each case for that line to move.
I'm not sure about medical consent, but I think in Canada, certain other rights consider the rights of the individual regardless of age. I know with information access and consent to release information, there are times when at 16 and older, consent to student records lies with the child. In FOI training, it was suggested (though it's not in law) that after the age of 12, consent to access or release records should come from both the minor and his/her parent.
Also, I think you slowly lose ownership of your children's lives. At some point, they become their own individuals, capable of making decisions, making friends, having sex, screwing up, getting in trouble, learning or not learning from the experience. At some point, no matter the age, they are not the parent's to control, and a parent can only hope that advice is taken. Where that line is for each person is impossible to delineate, and impossible to codify, and I think there has to be some flexibility in each case for that line to move.
Sue, this is beautifully put. I just finished reading My Sister's Keeper and sort of deals with similar issues about self-determination of one's body from the opposite end of the equation (13-year-old girl's sister has leukemia and she has been "forced" to donate a variety of things including marrow... now she's being told to donate a kidney against her will and she wants medical emancipation from her parents.) One line that was really gorgeous was something about children not being given to us, merely being on loan.
In a lot of cases, though, even though your parents love you, they WON'T help you the most. My mother had a terrible time conceiving and she stopped telling her mother, whom she ADORED, after three miscarriages any time she got pregnant, only because she just couldn't deal with her mother's panic about it. And sge was an adult at the time with her own home and many more resources than a teen.
We treat it as if it is something that even supportive families shouldn't find out.
Here's why, for me: It's a fuck-up. I am not a person who fucks up, especially to my parents. ESPECIALLY in high school.
Coming from a somewhat similar place: I had a friend in high school who skipped most of one quarter, I think because he was depressed. He never told his parents. He would get up in the morning and leave the house, and then go back home. He hid his report card. If they knew he was having issues, his parents would have helped him, but he still never told them. He was a "good kid." He was going to figure it out on his own.
Even in a loving, open family, it's hard for a 16 year old to admit not being perfect sometimes.
Damn. That's so me in high school. Though not depression. Just not being able to be wrong or to ask for help.
It's why I didn't learn to drive until I left home.
You are bringing up a chicken-and-egg argument. Is it shameful to have an abortion or do you feel shame because you had? doesn't matter if at the end of the day the net result is shame. Which it will be, I think, because the abortion part is only the ultimate shame, not the only piece.
No, I meant before that. It's when people are ashamed of the pregnancy. That is to say, there are some people who abort for that reason--they can't bear the thought of telling their families they are pregnant. Remove the shame, and some of them wouldn't choose to abort. They might not choose to parent. They might give the child in adoption, but they wouldn't abort.
I won't legislate your family if you won't legislate mine.But see, the pro-choice advocates, whose primary cause I do support, are trying to legislate my family, Kat. They are trying to take away my right to parent my child during what may arguably be one of the most volitile moments of that time of her life during which she is my responsibility, even though I wouldn't throw her out, or force her to carry to term, or force her to abort, or force her into marriage, or abuse her. That's my whole issue. People, in the name of choice, are taking away some of my choices, and leaving some children with a false sense that they can't go to their families for help. Again, I think there does need to be a safety net for kids who actually can't.
Nobody's telling your kid NOT to tell you anything, Cindy.
But see, the pro-choice advocates, whose primary cause I do support, are trying to legislate my family, Kat.
But the people who want parental notification are also trying to legislate people's families.
Nobody's telling your kid NOT to tell you anything, Cindy.
MWAH to you Jesse. That's EXACLTY what I was thinking. If you feel that you have open avenues and the your child would be open to not only you knowing and your input, then don't you have faith that they will tell you?
And if they have to be forced by law to do so, then don't you think that is a problem too? That it foreshadows what will happen (as allyson aptly pointed out) if they are forced to?
And people in the name of parental rights are trying to take away the choices of their girl.
I guess I'm just more pro-girl than pro-parent. For all of the reasons Allyson, Sue, Jesse said.
Frankly, you wouldn't throw her out, etc. etc. But that's you, in your family. To map that to every other family, I think, is impossible naive and terribly dangerous. Especially given how many people here, some of whom have had abortions, have stated, repeatedly why they think mandatory consent/informing is wrong.
But it's all moot, right? This entire argument. We can argue endlessly and never come to a resolution.
So, with that, Cindy, I'm opting to disengage. Not because I agree with you nor becuase I think I am wrong, but because I don't have the wherewithal to continue.