A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend.

Willow ,'Conversations with Dead People'


Natter 37: Oddly Enough, We've Had This Conversation Before.  

Off-topic discussion. Wanna talk about corsets, duct tape, or physics? This is the place. Detailed discussion of any current-season TV must be whitefonted.


Cashmere - Jul 20, 2005 12:18:01 pm PDT #1606 of 10002
Now tagless for your comfort.

Is the guy in the foreground wanking? Or am I seeing self-love where it doesn't exist?

Could just be a "comfort hold". I've seen some guys do that in their sleep.


Topic!Cindy - Jul 20, 2005 12:18:23 pm PDT #1607 of 10002
What is even happening?

It seems like hyperbole, and maybe I can't avoid it, but your kids don't need your consent to have some stranger who doesn't have your kids' best interest at heart inject their bodily fluids into your kids' bodies, which is really what sex is. A penis is like the world's grossest hypodermic needle. Could get you pregnant, could give you syphillis.

As medical procedures go, getting one pregnant (or diseased) doesn't require any formal training.

No law can keep my kids from eating the toadstools in my yard, either. I don't object to the hyperbole, but it's a bit like me pointing out my kids can sign up for the 12 CDs for a penny, and then say, "HA! I'm a minor, I don't have to buy any more at your stinking low club prices." There is no way to prevent people from doing lots of things. But we do have laws regulating certain areas, including consent to intercourse, by the way.

Abortions aren't provided (thankfully) by just any dick. They are provided by licensed medical practitioners, whose very practice is regulated by the law, as are hospitals and clinics. We routinely put restrictions upon and make requirements of healtcare providers already, to ensure patients get the care they need. We also make requirements of parents in the area of parenting their children, and when they do not meet those requirements, they can be subject to prosecution for neglect.

Does a minor need parental consent to receive a prescription for birth control pills?

Per here (I've no idea how accurate this is): [link]

no state explicitly requires parental consent for contraceptive services; testing or treatment for sexually transmitted diseases including HIV; counseling and medical care for drug and alcohol abuse; or outpatient mental health services. In at least half the states, minors have the explicit authority to consent to contraceptive services and to prenatal care and delivery services. Moreover, 34 states and the District of Columbia explicitly permit a minor mother to place her child for adoption without her own parents' permission or knowledge."

Does one need to show ID to buy condoms in any of the states?

I don't know, but probably not. Abortion, however, is a surgical procedure, and there are after-effects you don't (or at least I haven't) seen with contraceptive use. I do not have the ability to compare the possible physical after-effects, and specifically the morbidity rates for the pill vs. legal medical abortion.

I don't think you want to commit to this argument.
Fine.

Are children who are brought up in loving, non-abusive homes, by non-abusive parents, typically abused when they get pregnant as teens, or are they talked to (and yeah, maybe yelled at, at first), and possibly disciplined, and given tighter restrictions (which, yes, may chafe mightily) along with medical care and emotional support?

Are children who are abused when their parents learn of their unintended pregnancies typically from otherwise loving, non-abusive situations, or are they typically abused, in general, as well?

How would we define abuse? In other words, are most instances of child abuse of pregnant teens aberrations, or par for the course? I am only talking about reasonable definitions of abuse, by the way. A parent yelling or crying out of shock, won't cut it with me, provided he gets control of himself and, while probably disappointed and maybe even angry, does what he needs to do, to care for his child responsibly.

I'm not saying all parents are going to handle it great right out of the gate, or perfectly at any point in the process. The anti-chattel argument does not cut it with me though, because a parent is actually legally responsible for the health and welfare of his child until age 18. He is otherwise responsible to see that his child gets necessary medical care. If a child has an infection (not abortion related, just a garden variety infection) and her parents don't seek medical care, they can be (continued...)


Topic!Cindy - Jul 20, 2005 12:18:27 pm PDT #1608 of 10002
What is even happening?

( continues...) subject to investigation and prosecution for neglect. Yet here, a doctor can render this surgery, and many abortion rights advocates would fight to allow that this be concealed from the parents who are legally responsible for the child, even in cases where the parents are not abusive. How are they to provide the care she needs, if the doctors can operate on her, without informing them?

Why don't we just free parents from all responsibility for their children, once they can read, subtract, add, or at most by the onset of menses? We don't, because we believe they need parenting until they are of an age where they are able to make informed decisions, and give informed consent. This age has been (somewhat arbitrarily) set at 18. You can't have a beer legally, until you're 21, but you can have an abortion without your parents knowledge at any age, in some states.


erikaj - Jul 20, 2005 12:20:54 pm PDT #1609 of 10002
Always Anti-fascist!

In re this country, I plan to go down fighting. Of course, on this board, mostly I'd amend that to "if you ask nicely." Bad dum pum. (Ok, way inappropriate lighter note.) {{Cash}}


Allyson - Jul 20, 2005 12:21:20 pm PDT #1610 of 10002
Wait, is this real-world child support, where the money goes to buy food for the kids, or MRA fantasyland child support where the women just buy Ferraris and cocaine? -Jessica

Abortion, however, is a surgical procedure, and there are after-effects you don't (or at least I haven't) seen with contraceptive use.

What about the morning after pill? No surgery required.


Cashmere - Jul 20, 2005 12:23:12 pm PDT #1611 of 10002
Now tagless for your comfort.

What about the morning after pill? No surgery required.

If it doesn't take, they could have to follow up with a surgical abortion. I forget what the % of failure in RU486 is.


Lyra Jane - Jul 20, 2005 12:24:11 pm PDT #1612 of 10002
Up with the sun

What about the morning after pill? No surgery required.

It's important to distinguish between the morning after pill -- superconcentrated birth control pills that prevent implantation -- and chemical abortion through RU-486. I'm sure you wouldn't do this, but a lot of people seem to blur the two, when they're very different.


Topic!Cindy - Jul 20, 2005 12:24:29 pm PDT #1613 of 10002
What is even happening?

What about the morning after pill? No surgery required.
It pings me far less. I'm not crazy about the idea that my kids could get any medication without my knowledge, but I know it's less (overall) risky for my kid to go on b.c. pills, than to conceive, provided she takes precaution against disease, as well. Assuming the risk of the morning after pill is more or less the same as B.C. pills, I think it's a different kettle of fish.


Cashmere - Jul 20, 2005 12:25:30 pm PDT #1614 of 10002
Now tagless for your comfort.

Lyra Jane, thank you for the distinction. I was assuming she meant RU486 when I posted a response but yeah, big difference.


brenda m - Jul 20, 2005 12:27:29 pm PDT #1615 of 10002
If you're going through hell/keep on going/don't slow down/keep your fear from showing/you might be gone/'fore the devil even knows you're there

Cindy, I don't think you're wrong. But - you're an adult, making a rational argument. There are kids out there who will feel that anything is better than telling their parents. And that's not just young women whose parents are or are likely to be abusive. Like others have said, I don't have kids, so I hesitate to speak as if I know all the ins and outs. But I believe that I would want my daughter to tell me, I would hope that I had raised my daughter to feel that she could, and at the end of the day, I would want her to have access to legitimate, responsible medical providers if she felt she couldn't, whether that feeling was based in reality or not.