I came away from both shows thinking Faith's journey was the must emotional and true to the character and continuity. Everything was hard. nothing was ever easy. And forgivness was almost always withheld, while then rewarded to people like Andrew and vampire who less then a few weeks ago was being controlled by the first and crazy. I also loved that in the end she still was there trying, she never got an easy way out, even when she was doing the right thing.

The soul issue was so muddled by the end of both shows. Recent Fury comments that said Spike always had the capabilty to love and piece of his humanity, made me think that him having a soul was not that big of deal. That made what he did without a soul even worse if he knew what love was and he had humanity in him. Unlike Angelus. I never understood why he was given a soul and why there was no difference between spike souled and spike unsouled, like Angel and Angelus. I guess that can also get chalked up to bad continuity and to many cooks in the kitchen.

Question.

Since Tim said he was asked to write and direct this thing, and he said he would. Why is there talk about other writers? Would not he be the only writer and his writting team be editors, copiers, and such?

Kiba Rika- Maybe this fanwank can help you. I think that when a vampire loses it's soul, and then gets it back, the soul still remains fully intact. The vampire still retains the same level of morality that it had when it was a human, before they vamped out. Plus, they feel immediately bad for what they've done, because their moral side never condoned their actions in the first place. However, with a human who never lost his/her soul, but went bad, it's a different story. Their morals, and to an extent, their soul, has been decayed. They never lost their soul, they only damaged it. Their being evil has nothing to do with them not having a soul, it just has to do with who they are, and the situation they were put in. So I suppose that if an evil person became a vamp and then got a soul, they would still be bad. However, Angel and Spike weren't really bad before they were vamped. Misguided, maybe. Evil, definitely not. So, they were able to attempt to do good when they got their souls back.

to convey that souled vampires were undoubtedly good by the virtue of their souls alone

But both Spike and Angel wanted to do good. And when Angel didn't want to do good, he wasn't very good at all.

Also, she's ridden their penises, so they get extra forgiveness points.

At least, that's how I saw it. It got way blurry about when I figured Lorne had no soul, so I stopped thinking too hard.

I might buy that BUT, Liam was not the psycopath that Angelus was. He was a wastral, drunk and womanizer, not uncommon for those times, but he was not baby killer, rapist, or torturer. He did love his sister and mother. he wanted attention from his father. Angelus loved no one. Not even Darla. Yet Darla loved her darling boy, souled or unsouled. There is big difference in personality,humanity and morality between Angelus, Angel and Liam.

Yet none of that was ever shown with the Spike character. William, souled Spike and unsouled Spike were all the same.

Hey you can fanwank Faith and Buffy had something in that missing scene in bad girls. You know where Buffy and her not only got the stitches to fix their hurts but how they also seems so very jazzed. hugry and horny. Just a thought.

How were William and unsouled Spike the same? How were William and souled Spike the same? They were a concatenation of experiences, and not discrete, but definitely not the same.

It all makes my brain hurt. Spike wanted to do good before he had a soul. Was it just to get into Buffy's pants? Yes, but you can't tell me he didn't want to again after he had a soul. The biggest difference I see in ensouledness between Angel and Spike is that Angel wants to atone for all the things he did, whereas Spike didn't seem interested in that. I think we can chalk that up to differences in philosophy - Spike's never seemed too interested in the past to me, with the exception of wanting to get Dru back.

Mostly I am kinda tired of Spike, but if anyone can revive my interest in him, it's Tim. Boyfriend always wanted a show that had as its core cast Angel, Spike, Riley (post-Buffy pre-marriage), Faith and Wesley. Dark, dark, dark. I'd have watched.

I think Spike wanted to do good, yes, and his motivation wasn't much of the issue for me -- more that he seemed in a precarious position -- his leaning was to violence, selfishness and causing pain. He fought it for one reason or another, but without the chip I don't think he'd ever have gotten as far as he did.

Unsouled spike killed people and was supposidly very ruthless.

But he was always shown no matter whatever incarnation to be able to understand and be capable of loving another person, be it vampire or human. As souled Spike and unsouled spike there was no difference in how he handled any situation. He never showed any guilt for anything that was not in some way directed towards him being hurt or Buffy being involved. Nor did he show any real want to make himself better for the need to make himself better, unless he gained something. Again the same qualites possesed by souled and unsouled Spike.

As for William and Spike(either souled version) All were love's Bitch. But at least with William, you are right that is where the similarites end.

I hope you are not thinking I am trying to start an anti-spike thing here. I think the character is okay(most when he was early Buffy or season 5 of Angel), just have no real need to see more. I just find to many inconsisitanties in the souled and unsouled versions when compard to how hard they went to show the differences between Angel and Angelus.

Truce. Vodka. I have Chocolate.

MMM.. Dark Wes and Faith would have been so cool. Not Dark like season 6, but in a way only Faith and Wes could be.

So I suppose that if an evil person became a vamp and then got a soul, they would still be bad.

Well, it isn't exactly a case of that, but Darla seemed to differ in her vampire and resurrected human states only by virtue of tendency to nervous breakdown in the latter. There weren't many difference in her motives (at least until the last few minutes before she was revamped).

Kristen, now that the full seven seasons are out on DVD, you have to add rules for each time Buffy says, "It's different; he has a soul, now."

Wait. For what show? BtVS only had five seasons. No, really. Five. Seasons. Shut. Up. FIVE. Seasons.

In unrelated news, I am pleased to report that while your calendar might tell you it's August 31st, it's really October 7th. At least in my little corner of the world.

Oh yes, indeed. It's October 7th. Let the Dance of Freedom, Joy & Happiness commence.